John Macarthur on Alcohol

[Cajun Huguenot]

As I stated before, I believe Dr. Macarthur has presented the scriptural teaching on this and I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. I'm simply illustrating that I'm am not the only one with my view of alcohol by showing that Dr. John Macarthur shares it. So, basically, I didn't make it up. It has been shown to be biblical by biblicists.

No, it has been shown that you and McArthur agree on an aberrant view about alcohol and the Bible. All the church disagreed for more than 1800 years. It could be the case that the Unitarians and the Temperance Movement folks, and Dr. Welch were right and everyone before them was wrong (including Spurgeon), but I believe that is very unlikely.

I am willing to take time and go into an in-depth study on the issue, which I have done a few times before, if you are willing to go ahead. I am willing to repent of my view if it is unbiblical.

I have no problem with anyone who chooses to abstain as a personal conviction, I do have a problem with trying to pass that position off as "THE" biblical position.

I have read McArthur, have you read my link? I think you should at least do that since I have read what you linked to.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[DD2008]

No, it has been shown that you and McArthur agree on an aberrant view about alcohol and the Bible. All the church disagreed for more than 1800 years. It could be the case that the Unitarians and the Temperance Movement folks, and Dr. Welch were right and everyone before them was wrong (including Spurgeon), but I believe that is very unlikely.

I am willing to take time and go into an in-depth study on the issue, which I have done a few times before, if you are willing to go ahead. I am willing to repent of my view if it is unbiblical.

I have no problem with anyone who chooses to abstain as a personal conviction, I do have a problem with trying to pass that position off as "THE" biblical position.

I have read McArthur, have you read my link? I think you should at least do that since I have read what you linked to.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

The Church has done all kinds of wrong things for many years at a time. That don't mean that we should persist in or resurrect errors.

Like anyone Spurgeon has a long list of mistakes.

The main point of our (Macarthur and myself) view on this is that there is no good reason for a Christian to drink alcohol when there are plenty of safe and good alternatives available. Why would we even want to knock on that door? Does it do any good for anyone at all? Does our drinking alcohol glorify God? How many sips can one take before they slip into a buzz? We know that drunkenness is condemned in the same scripture as homosexuality, it is viewed by God as no different.

1 Corinthians 9:10 KJV
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So again I ask, why even flirt with drunkenness? Should we flirt with fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, prostitution, thievery, covetousness, slander and cursing, or extortion? Why even temp yourself?

Why temp oneself...?

Matthew 6:13 KJV
[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matthew 26:41 KJV
[41] Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

2 Peter 2:9 KJV
[9] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out oftemptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

1 Timothy 6:9 KJV
[9] But they that will be rich fall intotemptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

James 1:13-14 KJV
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The bible clearly teaches sobriety:

1 Timothy 3:2 KJV
[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant,sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 2:2,4,6,12
[2] That the aged men besober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
[4] That they may teach the young women to besober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[6] Young men likewise exhort to besober minded.
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should livesoberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1 Peter 1:13 KJV
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 4:7 KJV
[7] But the end of all things is at hand: be ye thereforesober, and watch unto prayer.

1 Peter 5:8 KJV
[8] Besober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

One does not remain sober by drinking alcohol. If we are drinking we are either losing our sobriety or are dangerously close to it.

At any rate, I would rather just leave this with the clear explainations Macarthur and many other conservatives have given over the years.

 

[Erinwilcox]

The main point of our (Macarthur and myself) view on this is that there is no good reason for a Christian to drink alcohol when there are plenty of safe and good alternatives available. Why would we even want to knock on that door? Does it do any good for anyone at all? Does our drinking alcohol glorify God? How many sips can one take before they slip into a buzz? We know that drunkenness is condemned in the same scripture as homosexuality, it is viewed by God as no different.

1 Corinthians 9:10 KJV
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So again I ask, why even flirt with drunkenness? Should we flirt with fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, prostitution, thievery, covetousness, slander and cursing, or extortion? Why even temp yourself?

Perhaps we should all get rid of our internet as well since so many use it for vile and filthy things. Why flirt with temptation? Why knock on that door?

I believe that drinking alcohol CAN be done to the glory of God. I have never lost my sobriety, and I have never been drunk. Fornication is a sin, drunkenness is a sin, but married people can have sex to the glory of God, and those who drink in moderation can do so to the glory of God.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

The Church has done all kinds of wrong things for many years at a time. That don't mean that we should persist in or resurrect errors.

Like anyone Spurgeon has a long list of mistakes.

The main point of our (Macarthur and myself) view on this is that there is no good reason for a Christian to drink alcohol when there are plenty of safe and good alternatives available. Why would we even want to knock on that door? Does it do any good for anyone at all? Does our drinking alcohol glorify God? How many sips can one take before they slip into a buzz? We know that drunkenness is condemned in the same scripture as homosexuality, it is viewed by God as no different.

1 Corinthians 9:10 KJV
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So again I ask, why even flirt with drunkenness? Should we flirt with fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, prostitution, thievery, covetousness, slander and cursing, or extortion? Why even temp yourself?

Why temp oneself...?

Matthew 6:13 KJV
[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matthew 26:41 KJV
[41] Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

2 Peter 2:9 KJV
[9] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out oftemptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

1 Timothy 6:9 KJV
[9] But they that will be rich fall intotemptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

James 1:13-14 KJV
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The bible clearly teaches sobriety:

1 Timothy 3:2 KJV
[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant,sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 2:2,4,6,12
[2] That the aged men besober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
[4] That they may teach the young women to besober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[6] Young men likewise exhort to besober minded.
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should livesoberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1 Peter 1:13 KJV
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 4:7 KJV
[7] But the end of all things is at hand: be ye thereforesober, and watch unto prayer.

1 Peter 5:8 KJV
[8] Besober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

One does not remain sober by drinking alcohol. If we are drinking we are either losing our sobriety or are dangerously close to it.

At any rate, I would rather just leave this with the clear explainations Macarthur and many other conservatives have given over the years.

We can point to many verses in the bible where sexual sin and gluttony are pointed to, should we use them to argue against food or sex (marriage). Many Christians have used similar logic and concluded that Christians should be celibate. Do you follow their "thoughts" are do you look for what the Word of God actually says?

Many Christians say that we do not need to eat meat and they point to man before the Flood and writing of St. Paul to make their case. Their argument is similar to yours and John MacArthur. These Christians believe that all Christians should be vegetarians. They use the same argument as you and MacArthur. Are you a vegetarian?

Should you do as they "think" you should and be a vegetarian or should you search and see what the Word of God actually teaches on this subject?

Was god mistaken to give man wine and realize His mistake when Dr. Welch used Louis Pasteur's method to stop fermentation process?

The question is not how many not alcoholic beverages exist today compared to back when ever. The question is what do the Scriptures actually teach. On that question you do not wish to go further and read the argument posted against it. Your "conservative" Christian position is not a theologically conservative view. You have taken a position invented by Unitarians and later baptised by SOME conservative (mostly Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostals) have tried to make a biblical argument to defend. It is a biblically untenable position, which is why the defenders of this position usually (when the Scriptures are examined in detail) abandon attempts to use the Bible and fall back to sociological arguments (which is a liberal form of argumentation).

The whole Church was not wrong for 1800+ years. Wine is a gift from God and it is what Christ gave to His disciples at the Lord's Supper.

The facts are God commands that wine be used in worship of Him in the Old Covenant. (see Ex. 29, Lev. 23, Num. 15 & 28). In Numbers 18 God instructed the priests to take a portion of his wine for their personal use.

In Ps. 104 we read that it is God who provides wine "which makes man's heart glad." In this psalm wine is mentioned with food and oil as blessings from God.

Melchizedek (you know him Christ is a priest after his order) gave wine to Abraham after his return from battle.

We have not even scratched the surface yet, but I am more then willing to discuss this in great detail using the Scriptures only (Sola Scriptura).

I say again you are free to abstain from alcohol just as other Christians are free to abstain from meat and sex, but you are not free to teach that that is the the teaching of the Bible without proving your case.

We need proof from you, if you want to argue that abstinence is the biblical position.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[DD2008]

We need proof from you, if you want to argue that abstinence is the biblical position.

Well, I don't know any other way to remain sober than to abstain from the substance that makes me not sober.

1 Peter 5:8 KJV
[8] Besober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The words "Be Sober" from the pen of the apostle Peter are enought proof for me.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Cute answer, but it does not prove that your abstinence only position is biblical.

I can bring up verses to try and defend the vegetarian position.

I can bring up verses to try and defend the argument for sexual abstinence.

Of course I would have to ignore a most of the rest of Scripture to maintain those arguments, just as you have to do to maintain the abstinence only argument of modern (post 1800) Christians who deny the moderate use of alcohol is biblical.

I am ready to do a Bible only in-depth study to see what the Bible teaches. Shall we start?

Coram Deo,
Kenith

I can bri

 

[DD2008]

Cute answer, but it does not prove that your abstinence only position is biblical.

I can bring up verses to try and defend the vegetarian position.

I can bring up verses to try and defend the argument for sexual abstinence.

Of course I would have to ignore a most of the rest of Scripture to maintain those arguments, just as you have to do to maintain the abstinence only argument of modern (post 1800) Christians who deny the moderate use of alcohol is biblical.

I am ready to do a Bible only in-depth study to see what the Bible teaches. Shall we start?

Coram Deo,
Kenith

I can bri

I'm plenty comfortable with remining sober as Peter directed.

Thanks.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I'm plenty comfortable with remining sober as Peter directed.

Thanks.

The problem is that when you say "I'm plenty comfortable with remaining sober as Peter directed" you are saying that "You who drink anything get drunk and go against the Bible."

DRINKING ALCOHOL DOES NOT EQUAL GETTING DRUNK OR NOT REMAINING SOBER.

If your convictions lead you to abstain completely, you have my utmost respect. Please, however, do not heap judgement upon those of us whom God has given the liberty to enjoy a drink without getting drunk.

 

[DD2008]

The problem is that when you say "I'm plenty comfortable with remaining sober as Peter directed" you are saying that "You who drink anything get drunk and go against the Bible."

DRINKING ALCOHOL DOES NOT EQUAL GETTING DRUNK OR NOT REMAINING SOBER.

If your convictions lead you to abstain completely, you have my utmost respect. Please, however, do not heap judgement upon those of us whom God has given the liberty to enjoy a drink without getting drunk.

People get upset everytime this topic comes up. I'm going to stop talking about it now. I've presented enough to show why I hold my position anyway. I do not wish to discuss it further. I have a short attention span and I am actually interested in other topics right now anyway. Just putting my 2cents in

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

People get upset everytime this topic comes up. I'm going to stop talking about it now. I've presented enough to show why I hold my position anyway. I do not wish to discuss it further. I have a short attention span and I am actually interested in other topics right now anyway. Just putting my 2cents in

I have not gotten upset. I've only challenged you to defend your position with an in-depth study. You have given a number of cute but evasive answers. You declined to read my link, though I have read McArthur. I offered to reread MacArthur if would take a few moments to read my link, but you turned me down.

With all that considered I accept your cry of "uncle" though is not quite worded that way.

Here it is one last time, "your and MacArthur's position can no more be defended from Scripture than the arguments for Christians to abstain from meat or sex."

I thorough Sola Scriptura study on this issue has time and again shown your position to be non-Scriptural.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[kenrapoza]

I am ready to do a Bible only in-depth study to see what the Bible teaches. Shall we start?

I'm plenty comfortable with remining sober as Peter directed.

Thanks.

I suppose that's a no?

In a way it's too bad - not because people aren't entitled to abstain from a particular activity or because Christians who want to exercise that liberty are secret drunkards who need to be rebuked - but because Christian Liberty is a Gospel issue. When we invent our own standards of holiness and add to what God has said and take away God-given liberties, we become Pharisees and Judaizers - we effectively deny the gospel. The person who is a bad witness to the world is not the one who exercises proper Christian liberty, but the one who would curtail it for others. That is a bad witness because it preaches a man-made religion, not a pure gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. This is why Paul publicly rebuked Peter in Antioch.

 

[DD2008]

I suppose that's a no?

In a way it's too bad - not because people aren't entitled to abstain from a particular activity or because Christians who want to exercise that liberty are secret drunkards who need to be rebuked - but because Christian Liberty is a Gospel issue. When we invent our own standards of holiness and add to what God has said and take away God-given liberties, we become Pharisees and Judaizers - we effectively deny the gospel. The person who is a bad witness to the world is not the one who exercises proper Christian liberty, but the one who would curtail it for others. That is a bad witness because it preaches a man-made religion, not a pure gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. This is why Paul publicly rebuked Peter in Antioch.

Paul and Peter both agreed that we should be sober. The Holy Spirit inspired them to write that in scripture. I have nothing to add to what they've already written. "Be Sober" is pretty clear to me.

 

[WandererOfTheWastes]

I think maybe DD's problem is that he's the type that gets smashed after one light beer. I wonder if he enjoys coffee?

I'm plenty comfortable with remining sober as Peter directed.

Thanks.

This is a really irritating attitude, btw. "Oh nah I don't want to discuss it, I know I'm right, kthxbye".

 

[DD2008]

I think maybe DD's problem is that he's the type that gets smashed after one light beer. I wonder if he enjoys coffee?



This is a really irritating attitude, btw. "Oh nah I don't want to discuss it, I know I'm right, kthxbye".

Believe it or not, I don't drink caffine. NOT for biblical reasons, but because it makes me feel bad. I haven't had any for a few years.


And honestly I don't know what else I could say, "Be Sober"??? That's pretty clear to me. Can't help it.

 

[WandererOfTheWastes]

Yes, because having a glass or two equates to being drunk. Right-o

 

[DD2008]

Yes, because having a glass or two equates to being drunk. Right-o

What exactly does equate to being drunk?

 

[kenrapoza]

Paul and Peter both agreed that we should be sober. The Holy Spirit inspired them to write that in scripture. I have nothing to add to what they've already written. "Be Sober" is pretty clear to me.

I guess what is confusing me is that your view pits Paul and Peter against Jesus, and God the Father for that matter who inspired many of the OT writers to speak positively of wine.

Are you really saying that when Peter says:

"Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world."

that what he really means is "don't consume any alcohol"? Obviously alcohol is not even remotely the subject of what Peter is talking about. Not only that, but this is the same Peter who drank wine from the hand of Jesus at the Last Supper and was charged with proclaiming the gospel through the sacrament of communion when the church gathers together as the ekklesia.

If I'm following you correctly, I would have to conclude that Jesus wasn't sober.

 

[DD2008]

I guess what is confusing me is that your view pits Paul and Peter against Jesus, and God the Father for that matter who inspired many of the OT writers to speak positively of wine.

Are you really saying that when Peter says:

"Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world."

that what he really means is "don't consume any alcohol"? Obviously alcohol is not even remotely the subject of what Peter is talking about. Not only that, but this is the same Peter who drank wine from the hand of Jesus at the Last Supper and was charged with proclaiming the gospel through the sacrament of communion when the church gathers together as the ekklesia.

If I'm following you correctly, I would have to conclude that Jesus wasn't sober.

1. I don't believe for a second that all "wine" mentioned in the bible is indeed the alcoholic drink we think of when we hear that word. Link: http://logosresourcepages.org/Believers/drinking.htm

2. Jesus never sinned, we know losing sobriety is a sin, therefore we know Jesus never lost sobriety.

3. The definition of intoxicated to to be unsober. If you really want to avoid drunkenness avoid the substance that makes you drunk.

Peter and Paul both appealed to us to be sober.

Rom.12

1. [3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1Thes.5

1. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
2. [8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Tim.3

1. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
2. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Tit.1

1. [8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

Tit.2

1. [2] That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
2. [4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
3. [6] Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
4. [12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1Pet.1

1. [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pet.4

1. [7] But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1Pet.5

1. [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

The problem is that when you say "I'm plenty comfortable with remaining sober as Peter directed" you are saying that "You who drink anything get drunk and go against the Bible."

DRINKING ALCOHOL DOES NOT EQUAL GETTING DRUNK OR NOT REMAINING SOBER.

If your convictions lead you to abstain completely, you have my utmost respect. Please, however, do not heap judgement upon those of us whom God has given the liberty to enjoy a drink without getting drunk.

i'm going to hijack this thread a bit and say GREAT PICTURE OF YOU AND PATRICK! Perfect avatar.

i'm still in Virginia and going to be here a while after about a three week break in August. Pam is taking care of things at my place while i'm gone (hey, somebody has to cut the grass and get the mail), and is getting ready to deal with a second grandson in September. First grandson is now 15 months old and approaching 40 lbs.

When you get time, drop an email.

Back to point: The verse quoted assumes that Peter was referring to the consumption of alcohol. Bad assumption, the context will not support such an interpretation. No reference in the immediate context to the consumption of alcohol.

If we start reading meaning into words that the context of a passage will not support, then the scriptures can be made to say anything we want them to say.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

1. I don't believe for a second that all "wine" mentioned in the bible is indeed the alcoholic drink we think of when we hear that word. Link: Seven Good Reasons Christians Should Not Drink

2. Jesus never sinned, we know losing sobriety is a sin, therefore we know Jesus never lost sobriety.

3. The definition of intoxicated to to be unsober. If you really want to avoid drunkenness avoid the substance that makes you drunk.

Peter and Paul both appealed to us to be sober.

Rom.12

1. [3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1Thes.5

1. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
2. [8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Tim.3

1. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
2. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Tit.1

1. [8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

Tit.2

1. [2] That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
2. [4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
3. [6] Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
4. [12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1Pet.1

1. [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pet.4

1. [7] But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1Pet.5

1. [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Ok, you need to stop NOW.

i challenge you to look at the immediate context of those passages you've just quoted and find where the subject of alcohol consumption is referenced.

i further challenge you to do a search on the Greek word translated as 'sober' in those passages, and prove that they are a reference to the abstention from alcohol.

i fear that you will fail to make your case.

While you are certainly NOT in sin over your choice to abstain from the consumption of alcoholic beverages, you have committed the sin of twisting scripture to suite your preconceived doctrinal view. It is popularly referred to as eisegesis --reading one's interpretation INTO scripture-- as opposed to exegesis, which is the reading of doctrine from OUT OF scripture.