John Calvin versus the rest of early Christian

[wandering misfit]

Who are the early "church fathers" on record that you speak of that refutes Augustine/Calvin?

 

[Rescued One]

1 Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Who saves and Who should you follow?

 

[wandering misfit]

This thread is about salvation.

 

[5thKingdom]

Agreed, the 2nd council would be a good conversation. For todays age...

Actually you are looking in the WRONG DIRECTION.
What would be a "good conversation" for today is what
does the Bible say about the END of the Church Age and
the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.


We know the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints "shall understand"
Biblical mysteries "closed up" and "sealed" to all previous Saints
and this NEW INFORMATION is revealed at the "time of the end"
[Dan 12:8-10]. So, obviously the 2nd Council is no help there...
In fact (contrary to popular opinion), the BIBLE teaches that the
Last Saints understand much more than any previous Saints,
which is WHY I said you were looking in the "wrong direction".


Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things"
(fulfillment of all Great Tribulation "signs") including fulfillment of
Daniel's "Abomination" and all the events immediately before
His Return (including the NAME of the Antichrist) [Mat 24:15,33]
Again, the 2nd Council will be no help to you there.


So, it is a (common) mistake to think we can learn more Biblical
Truth from Saints living in 300AD than we can from the Truths
revealed from the Last Saints. The Bible (and Jesus) very clearly
PROMISED otherwise, if we DARE to believe the Bible and Jesus.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

1 Corinthians 1 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you;

Of course the CONTEXT of this passage is only the saved "wheat"
in the church (sown by God) and NOT the unsaved "tares" in the
church (sown by Satan).

The word "brethren" establishes the CONTEXT are the Saints in
the church and not the "tares" or "false prophets" or "wolves in
sheep's clothing" or any number of other names given to those
in the church who are "children of Satan".

If we cannot discern the CONTEXT of this (or any other) passage
then we have no hope of ever understanding the MEANING
of the passage.

Jim

 

[wandering misfit]

I'm sorry I can't entertain discernment of eschatology in this thread.

 

[5thKingdom]

I'm sorry I can't entertain discernment of eschatology in this thread.

You are kidding right?

YOU ASKED about Revelation 7... that is eschatology.
Is that NEWS to you?

When YOU ASK for information about Revelation 7
you are ASKING for information on eschatology.

You cannot ASK for information about Revelation 7
and THEN say "I can't entertain discernment of eschatology
on this thread".

Make up your mind.

And if you ASK for information on eschatology (Rev 7)
then do not embarrass yourself by saying you cannot
entertain information on what you have ASKED FOR.

Jim

 

[wandering misfit]

Which thread are you in?

 

[Rescued One]

Of course the CONTEXT of this passage is only the saved "wheat"
in the church (sown by God) and NOT the unsaved "tares" in the
church (sown by Satan).

The word "brethren" establishes the CONTEXT are the Saints in
the church and not the "tares" or "false prophets" or "wolves in
sheep's clothing" or any number of other names given to those
in the church who are "children of Satan".

If we cannot discern the CONTEXT of this (or any other) passage
then we have no hope of ever understanding the MEANING
of the passage.

Jim

I know there are tares. If your pastor is a tare, get up and leave. The sheep won't follow false teachers.

There are seekers among us and we don't refer to them as tares. God brings them to hear the message.

 

[5thKingdom]

There are seekers among us and we don't
refer to them as tares. God brings them to
hear the message.

That is NOT what the Bible says.


The Bible does NOT say that God brings "tares" into the church.
The Bible says that SATAN brings "tares" into the church.


Why are you teaching the OPPOSITE of what Jesus said?
Read Matthew 13:24-30 and 13:36-43.
Which says in part:


Mat 13:24-26
Another parable put he [Jesus] forth unto them, saying,
The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man
which sowed good seed [wheat] in his field: But while men
slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
and went his way. But when the blade [wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.


Mat 13:37-39
He [Jesus] answered and said unto them,
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of
the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is
the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


You should read the complete passages (cited above)
several times so that you have a CLEAR UNDERSTANDING
that the "wheat" in the church are the "children of the Kingdom"
(the "Kingdom of Heaven") but the "tares" in the church are
the "children of the wicked one" (the children of Satan)


This is a very BASIC and ESSENTIAL element of the Gospel.
I wonder why it is "news" to you?


The Gospel of the Bible is exceedingly clear that:
The church is infiltrated by unsaved "tares" who are actually
the "children of Satan". Throughout the Bible they are called
"false teachers" and "false prophets" and "wolves in sheep's
clothing" and "those who are not of us"... and many similar
names.


These "tares" or "children of Satan" infiltrate the churches and
the "leaven" of their false doctrines corrupts the churches
and eventually the entire Christian "Kingdom".


The FULFILLMENT of this Biblical Truth can be seen today as
we see the Catholic church teaching the false doctrine (heresy)
of synergism, and we see the vast majority of Protestant churches
also teaching the false gospel (heresy) of synergism... but we see
very FEW Protestant churches now teaching the True Gospel of
monergism.


This is the actual fulfillment of MANY "Christians" following
the BROAD WAY into destruction... and relatively FEW
(saved) Christians following the narrow way into life.


Because... as YOU correctly pointed out:
Real Saints will not follow a false Gospel. Real Saints are
known by their "fruit" of following the True Gospel of monergism.
Nominal "Christians" will (and do) follow false "gospels" are known
by their "fruit" of following heresies like synergism. At least that
is what the BIBLE teaches... if we DARE to believe the Bible.


The saved "wheat" in the church ("children of God") and
the unsaved "tares" in the church ("children of Satan") that
is what JESUS clearly taught - and what the Saints have been
preaching for almost 2000 years, because it is a very BASIC and
ESSENTIAL element of the Gospel of the Bible.


Jim

 

[wandering misfit]

I know there are tares. If your pastor is a tare, get up and leave. The sheep won't follow false teachers.

There are seekers among us and we don't refer to them as tares. God brings them to hear the message.

IMO the seekers are fooling themselves....kinda like freely judging a pastor based on our evaluation of salvation from a previous teacher who may be false.

 

[Rescued One]

IMO the seekers are fooling themselves....kinda like freely judging a pastor based on our evaluation of salvation from a previous teacher who may be false.

I have no clue on what you want to convey.

 

[Rescued One]

That is NOT what the Bible says.


The Bible does NOT say that God brings "tares" into the church.
The Bible says that SATAN brings "tares" into the church.


Why are you teaching the OPPOSITE of what Jesus said?
Read Matthew 13:24-30 and 13:36-43.
Which says in part:


Mat 13:24-26
Another parable put he [Jesus] forth unto them, saying,
The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man
which sowed good seed [wheat] in his field: But while men
slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
and went his way. But when the blade [wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.


Mat 13:37-39
He [Jesus] answered and said unto them,
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of
the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is
the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


You should read the complete passages (cited above)
several times so that you have a CLEAR UNDERSTANDING
that the "wheat" in the church are the "children of the Kingdom"
(the "Kingdom of Heaven") but the "tares" in the church are
the "children of the wicked one" (the children of Satan)


This is a very BASIC and ESSENTIAL element of the Gospel.
I wonder why it is "news" to you?


The Gospel of the Bible is exceedingly clear that:
The church is infiltrated by unsaved "tares" who are actually
the "children of Satan". Throughout the Bible they are called
"false teachers" and "false prophets" and "wolves in sheep's
clothing" and "those who are not of us"... and many similar
names.


These "tares" or "children of Satan" infiltrate the churches and
the "leaven" of their false doctrines corrupts the churches
and eventually the entire Christian "Kingdom".


The FULFILLMENT of this Biblical Truth can be seen today as
we see the Catholic church teaching the false doctrine (heresy)
of synergism, and we see the vast majority of Protestant churches
also teaching the false gospel (heresy) of synergism... but we see
very FEW Protestant churches now teaching the True Gospel of
monergism.


This is the actual fulfillment of MANY "Christians" following
the BROAD WAY into destruction... and relatively FEW
(saved) Christians following the narrow way into life.


Because... as YOU correctly pointed out:
Real Saints will not follow a false Gospel. Real Saints are
known by their "fruit" of following the True Gospel of monergism.
Nominal "Christians" will (and do) follow false "gospels" are known
by their "fruit" of following heresies like synergism. At least that
is what the BIBLE teaches... if we DARE to believe the Bible.


The saved "wheat" in the church ("children of God") and
the unsaved "tares" in the church ("children of Satan") that
is what JESUS clearly taught - and what the Saints have been
preaching for almost 2000 years, because it is a very BASIC and
ESSENTIAL element of the Gospel of the Bible.


Jim

 

[Rescued One]

That is NOT what the Bible says.


The Bible does NOT say that God brings "tares" into the church.
The Bible says that SATAN brings "tares" into the church.


Why are you teaching the OPPOSITE of what Jesus said?
Read Matthew 13:24-30 and 13:36-43.
Which says in part:


Mat 13:24-26
Another parable put he [Jesus] forth unto them, saying,
The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man
which sowed good seed [wheat] in his field: But while men
slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
and went his way. But when the blade [wheat] was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.


Mat 13:37-39
He [Jesus] answered and said unto them,
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of
the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is
the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


You should read the complete passages (cited above)
several times so that you have a CLEAR UNDERSTANDING
that the "wheat" in the church are the "children of the Kingdom"
(the "Kingdom of Heaven") but the "tares" in the church are
the "children of the wicked one" (the children of Satan)


This is a very BASIC and ESSENTIAL element of the Gospel.
I wonder why it is "news" to you?


The Gospel of the Bible is exceedingly clear that:
The church is infiltrated by unsaved "tares" who are actually
the "children of Satan". Throughout the Bible they are called
"false teachers" and "false prophets" and "wolves in sheep's
clothing" and "those who are not of us"... and many similar
names.


These "tares" or "children of Satan" infiltrate the churches and
the "leaven" of their false doctrines corrupts the churches
and eventually the entire Christian "Kingdom".


The FULFILLMENT of this Biblical Truth can be seen today as
we see the Catholic church teaching the false doctrine (heresy)
of synergism, and we see the vast majority of Protestant churches
also teaching the false gospel (heresy) of synergism... but we see
very FEW Protestant churches now teaching the True Gospel of
monergism.


This is the actual fulfillment of MANY "Christians" following
the BROAD WAY into destruction... and relatively FEW
(saved) Christians following the narrow way into life.


Because... as YOU correctly pointed out:
Real Saints will not follow a false Gospel. Real Saints are
known by their "fruit" of following the True Gospel of monergism.
Nominal "Christians" will (and do) follow false "gospels" are known
by their "fruit" of following heresies like synergism. At least that
is what the BIBLE teaches... if we DARE to believe the Bible.


The saved "wheat" in the church ("children of God") and
the unsaved "tares" in the church ("children of Satan") that
is what JESUS clearly taught - and what the Saints have been
preaching for almost 2000 years, because it is a very BASIC and
ESSENTIAL element of the Gospel of the Bible.


Jim

Standing in a garage doesn't make you a car. Visiting a church building doesn't make you a tare as opposed to a Christian. So do you stand at the door and tell people to go away? Were you born opposed to synergism? I've never heard an infant tell me to oppose synergism. Why don't you believe that non-whatever denomination you are people can become true Christians?

There is a church building and there is the invisible Church that Christ brings his sheep into. Are all the elect born into Christian families?

 

[5thKingdom]

IMO the seekers are fooling themselves....kinda like freely judging a pastor based on our evaluation of salvation from a previous teacher who may be false.

FIRST, if we are real saints our theology did not come from
"a previous teacher" (or any man), it came from Scripture
as we are taught by the indwelling Holy Spirit.


1Jn 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same
anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,
and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


SECONDLY, we (real saints) are COMMANDED to judge righteously
and determine who is NOT showing the "fruit" of being saved.
We are COMMANDED to:

(a) identify the unsaved in the church by their "fruit" of heresy
(b) rebuke them (some are "babes in Christ" needing correction)
(c) expel them from the church if they refuse to repent


You see, your IMO means nothing.
The only thing that matters is what Scripture says.
And, in this case, your "feelings" do not harmonize with Scripture.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Standing in a garage doesn't make you a car. Visiting a church building doesn't make you a tare as opposed to a Christian.

But that is a STRAWMAN argument because it is not what JESUS
said and it's not what I said Jesus said.


Jesus said (as I repeated) that SATAN sows the unsaved "tares"
in the church. So THAT is what you need to focus on...
you can forget talking about cars in a garage.

So do you stand at the door and tell people to go away?

No, the Bible tells us exactly what we are to do.
The Bible COMMANDS real saints to:

(a) identify unsaved "tares" by the "fruit" of their heresies
(b) rebuke then (as some are "babes in Christ" needing correction)
(c) expel those who refuse to repent from the church


The POINT is, it was always PART of the Gospel (taught by Jesus
and the Apostles) that Satan would sow unsaved "tares" into
the "wheat" of the church... and the Gospel COMMANDS the
saints how to deal with these "children of Satan" in the church.

Were you born opposed to synergism?

Of course not. I could not read the Bible when I was born.
However, when God "drew" me to Christ and I was "indwelt"
with the Holy Spirit, that "anointing" witnessed with my spirit and
allowed me to discern Biblical Truth from false doctrines and heresy.


1Jn 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing
teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it
hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


This is why you do not see real saints in churches preaching
false "gospels". Real saints know the difference between Biblical
Truth and heresy and we seek the most faithful churches possible.
Teaching heresies is the "fruit" of unsaved "tares" sown in the
church by their father Satan. It's really as simple as that.

Why don't you believe that non-whatever denomination you are people can become true Christians?

Because that is what the Bible teaches.
Saints do not always START in a faithful church, but after they are
"indwelt"by the Holy Spirit (born-again) they will flee from heresy
and seek Biblical teaching (the True Gospel).


BTW... I never said that Biblical Truth is limited to one church
or one denomination.


In my case, I was born and raised in a traditional (strict) Catholic
family... and I believed what they taught us. Then, when I was
in my late twenties, I began to read the Bible. Then I found so
many Scriptures that contradicted what the Catholic church taught.


So I had a decision to make: believe and trust in the dogma of the
Catholic church or believe and trust in what Scripture said and what
the "indwelling" Spirit was revealing to me. Needless to say I left
the heresies of the Catholic church (quickly) to follow Biblical Truth.
That is the "fruit" of all (real) saints... we seek Biblical Truth above
all else. That is why we tend to be found in a small minority of
churches as mainstream "Christianity" (both Catholic and Protestant)
went apostate - as was foretold in the Bible. The apostasy of the
churches is actually and important PART of the Gospel of the Bible.

There is a church building and there is the invisible Church that Christ brings his sheep into.

You are correct. The word "church" has TWO (2) meanings
in the Bible. (a) it can refer to the temporal "church" that
consists of BOTH saved "wheat" sown by God AND unsaved
"tares" sown by Satan.... or (b) it can refer to the eternal
"church" that consists of ONLY the saved "wheat" from EACH
of the "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth


(1) The Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven"
(2) The Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2 and 21:43]
(3) The Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13 in 8 verses]
(4) The Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13]
which is also shown as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.

Are all the elect born into Christian families?

No. But all the elect FLEE from false "gospels" after they have
been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Because that Holy Spirit
causes us to HATE heresy and to LOVE Biblical Truth.


Some Jews have become born again. Some Atheists have become
born again. Some Agnostics have been born-again and (while I have
never met any, I am sure) some Moslems and Buddhists and Hindus
have been born again. However, in EACH case they will FLEE from
the old ways and be "drawn" to Biblical Truth.


Jim

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never understood why folks want to read about the earlier fathers when they can just read the Bible instead. History is not inspired Scripture.

 

[5thKingdom]

John Calvin is the father of Reformed theology, his influence is huge in the protestant circle.... However, I doubt Calvin got it right 100% in everything.

Of course no man got everything 100% right.
You could say the same about any/all of the Creeds
and Confessions that came from the Reformation. They
were better than earlier Catholic dogma but far from perfect.

Now to test Calvin's theology we have to read the writing of the early Christians before him, especially the early fathers, to see how they interpret the bible and see their core theology.

(1) First, it is a common mistake to think that the early saints
understood the Gospel better than the saints from the Reformation
OR than the Last Saints. Since (a) God has revealed Gospel Truth
in a progressive manner and (b) the BIBLE PROMISES that the
Last Saints "shall understand" many mysteries that remained
"closed-up" and "sealed" to all previous saints until the
"time of the end". [Dan 12:8-10]


And JESUS PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" the fulfillment
of Bible prophecies never known to any previous saint... in fact,
Jesus promised that we would "see ALL these things" before
His Return. Including the fulfillment of Daniel's "Abomination"
all of the EVENTS associated with the Revelation Beast and even
the NAME of the person called the "Little Horn" the "False Prophet"
and the "Man of Sin"... the person commonly called the Antichrist. [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]


In fact the BIBLE PROMISES these Last Saints would preach all
these Biblical mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound".
And there are no "signs" in the Bible AFTER the Seventh Trumpet
"begins to sound"... except the resurrection of the dead and the
Last Saints being "changed" into our incorruptible spiritual bodies
in the "twinkling of an eye".


(2) Secondly, any student of church history can immediately see
they were struggling about some very BASIC and fundamental
elements of the Gospel - for hundreds of years after the
Apostles had died. Why in the world would we ever look
for the knowledge from people who could not even agree on
the Trinity or the Nature of Christ?


(3) Finally, while the BIBLE PROMISES all saints are "indwelt"
with the Holy Spirit that will TEACH THEM Gospel truths,
the ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is to find harmony
of ALL RELATED Scriptures. And this fact has been
understood from the days of the Apostles.


So, if someone has a doctrine (based on some Scripture)
and it harmonizes with ALL RELATED Scriptures, then we can
know the doctrine is correct. However, if that doctrine contradicts
SOME related Scriptures... then we know absolutely the doctrine
is not correct, at best it is a partial-truth.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

I never understood why folks want to read about the earlier fathers when they can just read the Bible instead. History is not inspired Scripture.

Many people think the early Christian had some "secret knowledge"
that was not discussed by the saints throughout history. But history
(reality) shows the saints have been discussing the SAME doctrines
since the time of the Apostles.

And you are correct, the Bible is the only authority on Truth.
The only measure of Biblical Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED
Scriptures.

If a man presents a doctrine that harmonizes with ALL RELATED
Scriptures then we can know it is Biblical. However if that doctrine
is contradicted by other Scriptures then we know absolutely that
it is not Biblical. At best it could only be some partial-truth.

Jim

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Many people think the early Christian had some "secret knowledge"
that was not discussed by the saints throughout history. But history
(reality) shows the saints have been discussing the SAME doctrines
since the time of the Apostles.

And you are correct, the Bible is the only authority on Truth.
The only measure of Biblical Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED
Scriptures.

If a man presents a doctrine that harmonizes with ALL RELATED
Scriptures then we can know it is Biblical. However if that doctrine
is contradicted by other Scriptures then we know absolutely that
it is not Biblical. At best it could only be some partial-truth.

Jim

Scripture is learned by accepting things in how they are plainly written and by having the Anointing of the Spirit. We ask God for the understanding and compare Scripture with Scripture. Historical church records or writings can almost be idolatrous in my opinion. Just because something is old does not mean it is correct. False beliefs existed in the past, and they exist today. Certain churches look to their own history and say it is the correct one. But not all churches agree on doctrine. So which church is correct? Thus, the Bible is the standard and not church history.

You are for reformed theology. So you will look to Calvnist writings in the past. A Catholic will look to Catholic writings of the past. But I just look to the Bible as my sole authority and ask God for the understanding. I do not impose a certain set of beliefs from men upon the text of the Bible.