John Calvin, Murderer

[Rick Otto]

I don't see how "lensing through the Gospels" is a vague notion. The core of Christian teaching is in the life of Christ, in the Gospels. In my talks with Calvinists, I have been amazed at how often they quote the epistles, the epistles, and the epistles. I have even come up with a somewhat limited theory to explain this. If you are a minister trying to run a church, the epistles are the the part of the Bible that talks about the church. Nevertheless, a Christian must first be grounded in the Gospels.

I have had a Calvinist say to me, "Christianity is founded on the Book of Romans."
What happened to the rest of the Bible?

Right. The epistles are about religion, the gospels describe the drama of God's Spirit confronting religion.
So I agree with you both. The religion of Christianity is spelled out in the epistles and the reason for Christianity existing is narrated in the gospels.
Fair enough?

 

[Dale]

I was talking with a friend and mentioned predestination.

She said, "If everything is perdestined from the beginning, then what are we here for?"

She's right. If God already knows who is going to heaven and not going to heaven, there is no need for a place of testing or a time interval to make decisions. The decision would already be made.

 

[Dale]

Right. The epistles are about religion, the gospels describe the drama of God's Spirit confronting religion.
So I agree with you both. The religion of Christianity is spelled out in the epistles and the reason for Christianity existing is narrated in the gospels.
Fair enough?

You are trying to give the Epistles a special status. The Epistles are part of the Bible but otherwise they have no special place. If any part of the Bible has a special status it would have to be the Gospels.

 

[miamited]

Hi all,

Well, this issue of John Calvin and his brand of 'christianity', for me, strikes at a a much broader problem found in the christian faith. We tend to want to support our individual understanding of the Scriptures based on someone else's work rather than on the Holy Spirit, who is the only one that Jesus said would lead us into all truth.

I don't have a clue whether John Calvin was born again or not. I don't have a clue whether any single ECF was born again or not. We all have various ideas and understandings of religion and what the Scriptures actually mean to infer in the words that are written and have since been translated into our various languages. However, the Scriptures are quite clear, at least to me, that only those with the indwelling Spirit of God can or will understand the truths of God.

As far as I know, John Calvin was a religious man. He had obviously read the Scriptures and come away with some sort of understanding as to what they said. But, was he correct in that understanding? We have people today who read the Scriptures and come away with an understanding that they teach that we are created to be healthy and happy and wealthy in this life. I certainly don't find any such guarantee or even example of that as being the regular and expected outcome of true faith in God. Yes, Solomon was wealthy beyond compare. The first disciples were basically paupers living, it seems, pretty much hand to mouth and depending on the goodness of other believers to feed them and care for them as they journeyed across the area preaching and teaching the truth of Jesus.

We have others teaching that these ideas that John Calvin understood from the Scriptures are the truth and we have people teaching that the ideas of John Wesley explain the truth of the Scriptures. We have some who believe that the ECF''s, the pope, John Spong are teaching to us the truths of the Scriptures. How do we know if any of them are born again and would, therefore, even know the truth of the Scriptures?

I believe that there is only one way for us to know the fullness of the truths of the Scriptures. First, we must be born again. In Jesus' day the people looked to the Pharisees and Scribes, etc., to discern for them what the Scriptures say and I think it quite clear that Jesus didn't think they really had a very good grasp of those truths. He then explained to Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees, that he needed to be born again. So, we seem to have always had people telling us what the Scriptures say that we, the general population, believed to know what they were talking about, that was likely a misplaced trust on our part.

Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. Pay careful attention to those words. Unless one is born again he cannot 'see' the kingdom of God. It doesn't say that he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I take those words to mean that in the here and now, unless one is born again, he can't see the kingdom of God. He has no comprehension of where it is, how to enter or anything that is a part of the kingdom of God.

So, the first challenge we face is knowing whether or not someone who has written some theological treatise of the things of God, is born of God's Spirit. How can we know this? Well, there are a couple of clues to look for. First, they must show through their life's work the fruit that naturally flows from those with the Spirit of God. Secondly, if we are born again, then the same Spirit in us will convict us of the same truths of the person's theology that we are reading about or listening to. These are both difficult to discern in another, and most certainly in someone who is dead and gone.

Nearly every one of the new covenant writers warns of false teachings. It would seem to me, based on its apparent importance that so many warn us of it, that it's something we need to be constantly discerning about. We need to be very, very careful in what and who we accept as being the truth from God. We may well wind up to be just like all those who followed and practiced the words of the Pharisees and Scribes. The blind will only lead the blind into a pit.

For me, the answer is the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit for myself. When I read the Scriptures, I am constantly and regularly praying for the wisdom and understanding of the things of God that only come through the Spirit of God. I've never even read any of John Calvin's or John Wesley's or the ECF's writings because I know that the only truth I need to know comes from the Scriptures and understanding given to me of them through the Holy Spirit. I don't need to know what John Calvin thinks or believes. I don't need to know what Wesley or any of the individual Early Church Father's knew or understood about the Scriptures.

There have been times that I've come across a place in the Scriptures that is difficult to understand and I have gone to commentary sources to see how they may have understood it to give my mind a place to start, but then I return to prayer and ask again that the Holy Spirit give me understanding. Now, honestly and sadly, unless the one reading these words is also indwelled with the Holy Spirit, they're not likely to understand what I've written here about the necessity of having the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

For the record, I believe that John Calvin is wrong concerning predestination of any individual explained in the new covenant that came through Jesus, God's Son. I am encouraged that the places that speak of predestination are speaking of a group. That all those who will believe in the Lord Jesus as their Savior and sacrifice for sin, have been, since before the foundations of the world were set in place, 'predestined' to eternal life. That group of people who while living their lives on this earth come to understand the truth of the Scriptures and choose to make Jesus their Lord and to follow his commands, i.e., to love God with all that they are and to love others as themselves, that group of people were predestined from the beginning to receive God's promise of eternal life.

It isn't John or Sue or Bill or Tammy, but a body of people that the Scriptures refer to as the ekklesia, those called out by God through the testimony of His Scriptures; those who have believed them and made their life choice to follow the path that they lay out rather than the wide, broad path that the rest of the world is following. Those people have been predestined by God through the promise delivered to us through His Son and the guarantee given to us by God of His indwelling Holy Spirit, to receive eternal life with our God and Creator. An eternal life of peace and satisfaction and abundance of joy shared with a day to day relationship as a servant of the most high God.

That's what I believe the Holy Spirit has led me to understand of the testimony of God's word.

God bless you all,
In Christ, ted

 

[Rick Otto]

You are trying to give the Epistles a special status. The Epistles are part of the Bible but otherwise they have no special place. If any part of the Bible has a special status it would have to be the Gospels.

They are all special in their own way.

 

[Rick Otto]

I was talking with a friend and mentioned predestination.

She said, "If everything is perdestined from the beginning, then what are we here for?"

She's right. If God already knows who is going to heaven and not going to heaven, there is no need for a place of testing or a time interval to make decisions. The decision would already be made.

I think Romans 9:22-23 answers her question.
I believe in predestination AND free will. Like I said, the will is free to pursue endless possibilities within the context of what has been created by God's pre-determination.

Eph 1:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

 

[Hank77]

[10] That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

[10] That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

V 10 - Jew and Gentile believers in one
V 11 - also Jewish believers
V 12 - Jews who first believed
V 13 - Gentiles also
V 14 - Jew and Gentile

When Paul says We he must be talking about the Jews, Paul was a Jew. The must be a difference between who 'we' is and who 'ye' is.
The fullness of time, the present dispensation, was the predestined Jew and Gentile in Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

[10] That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

V 10 - Jew and Gentile believers in one
V 11 - also Jewish believers
V 12 - Jews who first believed
V 13 - Gentiles also
V 14 - Jew and Gentile

When Paul says We he must be talking about the Jews, Paul was a Jew. The must be a difference between who 'we' is and who 'ye' is.
The fullness of time, the present dispensation, was the predestined Jew and Gentile in Christ.

Thank you, that was interesting... but I'm not sure what point you're making about predestination/free will with it.

The issue of who Paul means by "we" I think is answered in the first few lines:

1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The use of the plural pronouns described the "elect" who are chosen to be blessed with adoption (born into eternal life).

 

[Hank77]

Thank you, that was interesting... but I'm not sure what point you're making about predestination/free will with it.

The issue of who Paul means by "we" I think is answered in the first few lines:

1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The use of the plural pronouns described the "elect" who are chosen to be blessed with adoption (born into eternal life).

'Us' as a group of chosen. Just as God chose Israel as a group of chosen people were predestined, but not the individuals predestined, except for a select few who were chosen to specific positions to bring about His over all plan. The Gentiles also chosen as a group were predestined, but not as predestined individuals.
The scripture does not make sense any other way when Paul uses, 'we', 'ye', 'us/our'. So, imo, those particular verses do not support the view of individuals being predestined.

 

[Hank77]

[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Again the 'us' is both Jew and Gentile in the Christ.
He chose that both Jew and Gentile in the Christ, before the foundation of the world, that all of these would be holy and without blame before Him in love.
He predestined that all those in Christ would be holy and without blame before Him in love.
God predestined that those who loved His Son He would bless, sanctify in holiness, and love them.

 

[Rick Otto]

'Us' as a group of chosen. Just as God chose Israel as a group of chosen people were predestined, but not the individuals predestined, except for a select few who were chosen to specific positions to bring about His over all plan. The Gentiles also chosen as a group were predestined, but not as predestined individuals.
The scripture does not make sense any other way when Paul uses, 'we', 'ye', 'us/our'. So, imo, those particular verses do not support the view of individuals being predestined.

I'm of the opinion that groups being composed of individuals prevents exclusion of individuals from being predestined, and that predestination to a purpose still allows the groups and individuals that compose them, endless possibilities of how to fulfill that purpose, from which to freely choose.

 

[Dale]

Here's the distinction:
religion is ABOUT spirituality. It is not spirituality in the same way ontology is the study of being, not being itself. Thank you for asking. It is fundamental to appropriate orientation across a broad category of subjects.
Here's the dope on 'the implanted awareness' I spoke of:
Romans 1
[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I included surrounding verses as the explain what usually happens to people who after experiencing the truth of God, the invisible things getting clearly seen, they choose to love the creation instead of the Creator.

That experience is also iterated for those who DO understand the experience and correctly direct their worship, in Psalm 19:
1] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
[2] Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
[3] There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
[4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
[5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
[6] His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Pretty cool, huh?

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Romans 1: 18-25 NIV



I draw a different conclusion from the same passage.


It looks like Romans One supports the free will of humans. In these verses Paul tells of those “who suppress the truth by their wickedness,” and those who “knew God” but chose polytheism and idolatry. Paul says that “God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts” when they “exchanged the truth for a lie.”


Romans One says that God did not withhold the truth from mortals. They knew how to move forward into the truth but chose wickedness, false religion and sexual immorality. Paul tells us that it was a human choice.

 

[Dale]

Rick Otto,

I wish you would take a closer look at my quotes on "calling" from a scholarly source in post #34.

Abraham was called by God, but for what purpose? Abraham wasn't called so that he could be saved while others are lost. He was called to serve God's purpose of bringing the nation of Israel into being. Jesus was eventually born as a Jew in Israel.

Abraham wasn't called by God to special privelege, but for special service.

 

[Rick Otto]

Rick Otto,

I wish you would take a closer look at my quotes on "calling" from a scholarly source in post #34.

Abraham was called by God, but for what purpose? Abraham wasn't called so that he could be saved while others are lost. He was called to serve God's purpose of bringing the nation of Israel into being. Jesus was eventually born as a Jew in Israel.

Abraham wasn't called by God to special privelege, but for special service.

It appears to me that he was called to both.
I don't think I'mbeing reflexively, thoughtlessly inclusive... but I do think you are being unnecessarily exclusive.

 

[Mumbly]

I don't really have anything original to add, but thought Bruce Gore's (admittedly sympathetic) defense of Calvin is rational.

Servetus stuff starts around 13:00. It's not like Calvin could have done anything to stop it, and I think it pans out he was trying to be more merciful than some of his critics claim.

Oh, I guess I do have one original thought: Michael Servetus would be a great name for a punk band.

 

[AMR]

Worth a review:

Calvin A Murderer Meme | Christian Forums

 

[Dale]

Two quotes from John Greenleaf Whittier:


“I dare not fix with mete and bound
The love and power of God.”

“Ye seek a king; I fain would touch
The robe that hath no seam.”

Whittier was a Quaker. He may have been thinking of the predestinationists when he wrote these lines. The quotes are from Whittier's poem The Eternal Goodness.

Link:
http://www.poetry.net/poem/23090

 

[Dale]

Worth a review:

Calvin A Murderer Meme | Christian Forums

AMR, in your blog you deny that Calvin was dictator of Geneva. Historians say that he was.


<< Under the iron will of Calvin, Geneva became a “city of God.” In the social life of the community, Calvin enforced the ideals of purity, simplicity and devout religious faith. He was consulted in all civic as well as religious matters. >>

Compton's Encyclopedia, 1969, under Calvin.

 

[outlawState]

I don't really have anything original to add, but thought Bruce Gore's (admittedly sympathetic) defense of Calvin is rational.

No it's not rational. I stopped listening at the point where he defamed Servetus as being an Arian. Arian is a specific heresy that says that the Word of God is created. It is and was a common slander against all who seek to expose strong Trinitarianism (i.e. three Gods independently of each other by virtue of the possession of, or sharing of, the homoousious) as Tri-theism or even Quadtheism as the homoousios itself can be considered a further God. Tri-theism is polytheism.

If you're going to be rational, you have to accept that attacking the "philosophical" basis of the Trinity, which is based in "human philosophy," cannot be a reason to impute a biblical heresy. In fact as Heb 1;3 talks about the hypostasis (singular) of God, the bible appears to deny the three-hypostases version of the Trinity.

Servetus refused the appellation of "God the Son" and insisted on "son of God." For that he was burned. Shocking stuff, as the biblical usage is "son of God." (υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ where θεοῦ is genitive masc. sing.)

Calvin was clearly culpable in Servetus' death and sought to defend it afterwards, even though Geneva had no jurisdiction in any of Servetus's so-termed crimes, which were not "committed" in Geneva. Calvin simply hated the guy, which was the result of their former correspondence, and the matter that Calvin himself was branded an antichrist and on the same level as the Pope by Servetus. Calvin I think also shared responsibility for the deaths of quite a few other people at that time.

 

[Rick Otto]

...Like I say, I part ways with Calvin on ecclesiology, especially in the area of church discipline.