John 8:58 and Trinitarians.

Der Alte · Sep 10, 2009

marcusampe said:
I brought up the sayings of ducklow because they where relevant to what he rightly said and what I wanted to confirm.

The claim that God is one God, three persons is part of the saying wich is taken over by many persons. Often they do not understand it and can not clearly explain it, but then they say we must believe it because it is a dogma.

When has anyone ever came to you, accosted you in some way and tried to force their doctrine on you? Is it not true that you, and Ducklow, and others, go out of your way to come to a traditional, evangelical, Trinitarian discussion board to argue with Trinitarians about their beliefs? I tried to a join a kristadelfian board one time, but was banned before I could make one post. I'm sure there are many people in all religious groups who cannot fully articulate their beliefs. Very few of them go outside their religious groups to attack the beliefs of others.

Nevertheless, those trinitarians do not seem to realize that for every scripture they give to support their claim, they have use their thoughts beyond has been written so to imagine their dogma and then add what they have imagined to, and read their assumptions into, each and every scripture they present. Thus, while they present scriptures, what they really present to support the trinitarian dogma are assumptions that have to added to and read into those scriptures, which means that their support for the trinity as alleged in the scriptures presented actually ends up being a circular argument.

Everything I highlighted is a false accusation with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. I provided a link to two, back to back, posts where I cite 59 vss. in support of my views, please feel free to actually read my posts, directly address them, and back up the above unsupported assertions.

Stangly now in the last reacton you wrote, der Alter, you suddenly say that God the Father is not the son, this incontradiction to previous posts. You also mention that He is not the Spirit.
How do you interpret called/referred to? And then you now say ... as ... which is not the same as "is".

about the Son of God we then come closer to what I also think would be wright: Jesus is as God, or has character elements like God, but he is not God the Father.
But about the Spirit we keep having problems.

Link to my previous post citing 59 scriptures which call/refer to Jesus as God/YHWH, please address any arguments or discussion directly in reply to these posts.

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

This passage, Act 5:3-4, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

This passage Act 28:25-27, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]

This passage identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,

2ducklow · Sep 10, 2009

deralter said:
\When has anyone ever came to you, accosted you in some way and tried to force their doctrine on you? Is it not true that you, and Ducklow, and others, go out of your way to come to a traditional, evangelical, Trinitarian discussion board to argue with Trinitarians about their beliefs? I tried to a join a kristadelfian board one time, but was banned before I could make one post. I'm sure there are many people in all religious groups who cannot fully articulate their beliefs. Very few of them go outside their religious groups to attack the beliefs of others

Unorthodox Theology A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)

cf above

So what you're saying is you come to a forum to debate with non trionitarians but we are wrong to come here.

Der Alte · Sep 10, 2009

2ducklow said:
cf above

So what you're saying is you come to a forum to debate with non trionitarians but we are wrong to come here.

You started reading too late, and stopped too soon.

Forum Rules - Preamble
This site has the goal of facilitating discussions between various Christian faiths as determined by adherence to Christian Forums' Statement of Faith and the Trinitarian nature of God. Those of you who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them.

You ever notice how anti-Trinitarians cannot post in a large part of the site? Yes, there is a small area for unorthodox theologies so all other areas don't get over run with anti-Trinitarian arguments. As I said anti-Trins come to a Trinitarian board for the express purpose of attacking our beliefs. You don't like a Trinitarian saying you must believe the Trinity? Hello! Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to come here. Every anti-Trinitarian group around, e.g. JW, LDS, OP, MJ, WWCG, kristadelfian, SDA, etc., say the same thing. "If you don't believe exactly as we do you are lost and going to hell."

2ducklow · Sep 10, 2009

Der Alter said:
You started reading too late, and stopped too soon.

Forum Rules - Preamble

This site has the goal of facilitating discussions between various Christian faiths as determined by adherence to Christian Forums' Statement of Faith and the Trinitarian nature of God. Those of you who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them.

You ever notice how anti-Trinitarians cannot post in a large part of the site? Yes, there is a small area for unorthodox theologies so all other areas don't get over run with anti-Trinitarian arguments. As I said anti-Trins come to a Trinitarian board for the express purpose of attacking our beliefs. You don't like a Trinitarian saying you must believe the Trinity? Hello! Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to come here. Every anti-Trinitarian group around, e.g. JW, LDS, OP, MJ, WWCG, kristadelfian, SDA, etc., say the same thing. "If you don't believe exactly as we do you are lost and going to hell."

so what you're saying is that yes you come in here to debate with non trinitarians but we shouldn't come in here.

2ducklow · Sep 10, 2009

deralter said:
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, [there ye go, father, son, holy spirit (three) is one..] the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, theSon eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.[3 is 1]
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible [3 is 1].So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.[3 is 1]

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.[3 is 1]

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.[3 is 1]

For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.[(nice,, just forbid yourself from saying the obvious and that solves the probllem, name 3 different gods and forbid yourself from saying they are 3 gods and the problem of logic is solved., and you guys think this is deep stuff right? I can see now why you guys (y'all) forbid anyone from saying you have 3 gods simply cause you name 3 diffferent gods. cause athenasia said so.

so like if my church had a creed that said "we are forbidden by ________ religion to say that there are any trinitarians anywhere" then that means you guys don't exist right? cause we forbid ourselves from saying it, just like you guys forbid yourself from sayin there are 3 gods so there aren't 3 gods. humm all you gotta do is forbid it right? so like if i forbid myself from dieing i won't die right? interesting concept you got here.]

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.[worship unity? Strange.]

]

it’s color coded, red n blue. tRed is athenasia saying words that ate the equivalent of 3 is one, 3 is one in blue is my quote. I bet them monks was a chantin this athenasia thing all the time. no foolin.

looks like chanting to me.

here ya go try this chant.

there is one god, not three

there is one eternal, lnot three
there is one comprehensible, not three
there is one amighty, not three
there is one god, not three
there is one LORD, not three
there is one uncreated, not three,
ther is one father, not three
there is one son , not three
there is one holy spirit, not three
father is god
son is god
holy spirit is god
there is one god

meowng meowng meowng meowng

so tell me what the duifference is between the chant i created, and the one athenasia created? no real difference that I can see.

Der Alte · Sep 11, 2009

2ducklow said:
[* * * Repetitive misrepresentration and distortion omitted * * * ] [size=-1]its color coded, red n blue. tRed is athenasia saying words that ate the equivalent of 3 is one, 3 is one in blue is my quote. I bet them monks was a chantin this athenasia thing all the time. no foolin.[/SIZE]

What you "bet", think, suppose, assume, etc. means abso-diddly nothing. The Athanasian creed does NOT say "3 is 1"<period> End of story.

so tell me what the duifference is between the chant i created, and the one athenasia created? no real difference that I can see.

Not interested in your flights of fancy. If you ever want to discuss what is actually written in the creed let me know. For example.

Athanasian Creed
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

2ducklow · Sep 11, 2009

Originally Posted by 2ducklow

deralter said:
[* * * Repetitive misrepresentration and distortion omitted * * *

another deralter is not rebuttal.

deralter said:
What you "bet", think, suppose, assume, etc. means abso-diddly nothing. The Athanasian creed does NOT say "3 is 1"<period> End of story.

so like when you Trinitarians say the bible says Jesus is god it doesnt mean diddly right? I mean cause the bible doesnt say Jesus is god but you guys say it does. Seems weve stumbled on yet another der alter double standard here.

deralter said:
Not interested in your flights of fancy.

another der alter is not rebuttal. But one can chant anything really. So if one says anything cant be chanted they are worng, cause one can. But there was sufficient repretition in the creed of 3 is one to warrant it a likely candidate for mind numbing repetitiveness. But repetetiveness isnt necessary for a chant. Monks even chant scriptrue and especially the psalms at times.

So am I gonna get a I dont care what you think rebuttal. Which of course is the equivalent of saying is not..

deralter said:
If you ever want to discuss what is actually written in the creed let me know. For example.

well actually you cant chant anything.. Chanting is just a way of singing.

deralter said:
Athanasian Creed
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

well yea, 3 is not one cause athenasia, (well actually they say it probably wasnt him but oh well) said you are forbidden to say 3 gods. Since forbidding someone is the reason athenasia gave for why you dont have 3 gods when you name 3 gods, then you have an invalid reason and its back to the drawing board. So, there isnt any good reason for his conclusion, not three lords, but one lord. In your quote above.

Weve already been over 1 cor. 8.6 . I say it means one lord Jesus Christ, . Because the bible warns us to beware of false christs. You say it means one lord, Jesus Christ. I say it means One God, the Father, as do you. But you scoff at my interpretation of one god, the father (with a comma) and one Lord Jesus Christ (without the comma). I dont find scoffing a good reason Im wrong, and there is no grammatical reason why it cant be as I say. So as far as I can tell thats about as far as we can take it.

Der Alte · Sep 11, 2009

2ducklow said:
[ . . . ]Weve already been over 1 cor. 8.6 . I say it means one lord Jesus Christ, . Because the bible warns us to beware of false christs. You say it means one lord, Jesus Christ. I say it means One God, the Father, as do you. But you scoff at my interpretation of one god, the father (with a comma) and one Lord Jesus Christ (without the comma). I dont find scoffing a good reason Im wrong, and there is no grammatical reason why it cant be as I say. So as far as I can tell thats about as far as we can take it.

What you "say", "think" etc. NO, ZERO, NONE evidence of any, kind!

2ducklow · Sep 11, 2009

Der Alter said:
What you "say", "think" etc. NO, ZERO, NONE evidence of any, kind!

hummmmmmm. there shouldn't be a comma after any.

marcusampe · Sep 14, 2009

Der Alter said:
Link to my previous post citing 59 scriptures which call/refer to Jesus as God/YHWH, please address any arguments or discussion directly in reply to these posts.

Did you forget I reacted on several sayings over there. I went deeper into the thinkings and verses recorded in your rections.

marcusampe · Sep 14, 2009

Der Alter said:
Those of you who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them.
You ever notice how anti-Trinitarians cannot post in a large part of the site? Yes, there is a small area for unorthodox theologies so all other areas don't get over run with anti-Trinitarian arguments. As I said anti-Trins come to a Trinitarian board for the express purpose of attacking our beliefs. You don't like a Trinitarian saying you must believe the Trinity? Hello! Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to come here. Every anti-Trinitarian group around, e.g. JW, LDS, OP, MJ, WWCG, kristadelfian, SDA, etc., say the same thing. "If you don't believe exactly as we do you are lost and going to hell."

I think the few non-trinitarian writers on this forum always showed their respect.
If you look very well there are many JW an Christadlephian forums where non-trinitarains are welcome and may debate freely.

Neither JW nor Christadelphians would ever say that you would go to hell when you do not believe in the non-trinitarian thinking, because they do not believe in a hell.
Christadelphians shall also not say that you would be lost for ever. Christadelphians believe it is up to God to decide who shall be saved. And it shall be his Son, who is given the authorisation, who shall decide who is going to enter the Kingdom of God. It is not to humans to decide such a thing.

marcusampe · Sep 14, 2009

Dear der Alter,
What would be the use of a forum if there can not be a discussion about the ideas.
There are several Christadelphian forums where they just welcome other ideas because this gives the opportunity to bring the other way of thinking and to bring readers in the possibility to examine the said.
Sometimes we even consider it as a gift to be able to go deeper in a subject.

marcusampe · Sep 14, 2009

Der Alter said:
The Athanasian creed does NOT say "3 is 1"

But then you have to consider three persons and three gods, because they are not the same One.

Der Alter said:
1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Is that not clear? there can only be One God, who is the same as the Father and who is Lord of Lords, God Alighty, Jehovah/Yahweh.
Next to Him = an other person ~~~ a higher placed person: the one Lord we do have to recognise as the Messiah: Jesus/Yeshua.

marcusampe · Sep 14, 2009

Der Alter said:
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

(MHM) For certain persons have sneaked in among youpersons condemned by what had been previously written long ago. They are irreverent, perverting the unmerited favor of our God into loose conduct. They deny our only Owner and Master Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:4 (Williams) they did not try it even for the sake of the false brothers who had been smuggled in, who stole in to spy out the freedom we enjoy in Christ Jesus, so as to make us slaves again.

In the version you use it is also clearly written that we have the Lord of Lords the only Lord God, and the other person who we may call our Lord Jesus Christ or Yeshua the Messiah, the Saviour.

= 2 persons <== God and the the Master Teacher Messiah.

2ducklow · Sep 14, 2009

Der Alter said:
Here are scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God,[your opinon not scripture 2dl] in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [doesn't say Jesus is called/referred to as god, just your opinon.2dl]

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion, 2dl]

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.[Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.[Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.[Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.[Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. [Doesn’t say Jesus is called/refered to as god, it’s just your opinion,2dl]

got any others? You don't want to hear my opinion about anything, you've said so ad nausium, yet you call your opinion scirpture here and want us to comment on your opinion. It's like Jimmy Carter said once "LIfe's not fair."

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2009

2ducklow said:
got any others? You don't want to hear my opinion about anything, you've said so ad nausium, yet you call your opinion scirpture here and want us to comment on your opinion. It's like Jimmy Carter said once "LIfe's not fair."

Nuthin' from nuthin' leaves nuthin'. Not my opinion, it is the witness of the entire early church and scholars such as Wallace,, Robertson, Vincent, Gill, Metzger, etc.

2ducklow · Sep 14, 2009

Der Alter said:
Nuthin' from nuthin' leaves nuthin'. Not my opinion, it is the witness of the entire early church and scholars such as Wallace,, Robertson, Vincent, Gill, Metzger, etc.

you are still left with your false allegation that the bible says the son is called/refered to as god. Now you have found others who have the same false allegation. It appears your reasoning here is that trinitarian opinons are scripture, in that you refuse to recant your totally false claim that scripture SAYS the son is called/refered to as God. it is a very bad thing to put words in the mouth of God.

Revelation 22:18 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book:

Here's a question for you. What does it say about a doctrine when it's adherents have to make up false claims about what the bible says to support it?

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2009

marcusampe said:
Der Alter said:

[ . . . ]
Athanasian Creed
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

Galatians 2:4 (Williams) they did not try it even for the sake of the false brothers who had been smuggled in, who stole in to spy out the freedom we enjoy in Christ Jesus, so as to make us slaves again.

In the version you use it is also clearly written that we have the Lord of Lords the only Lord God, and the other person who we may call our Lord Jesus Christ or Yeshua the Messiah, the Saviour.

= 2 persons <== God and the the Master Teacher Messiah.

You split my post and addressed the 2 vss. in isolation. That is exactly what I believe, Two persons, one lord.

And the out-of-context vs. you are spouting at me trying to insult me refers to Judaizers.

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2009

2ducklow said:
[SIZE=-1]you are still left with your false allegation that the bible says the son is called/refered to as god. Now you have found others who have the same false allegation. It appears your reasoning here is that trinitarian opinons are scripture, in that you refuse to recant your totally false claim that scripture SAYS the son is called/refered to as God. it is a very bad thing to put words in the mouth of God.

Revelation 22:18 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book:

Here's a question for you. What does it say about a doctrine when it's adherents have to make up false claims about what the bible says to support it?[/SIZE]

No what we got here is a buncha empty argumentation. Every scripture I posted either states directly that Jesus is God or implies it. As I said every verse is supported by the entire early church and Christian scholars. Your endless repetition of "I'm right and you're wrong, Am too! Nuh Huh!" is meaningless.

2ducklow · Sep 14, 2009

Der Alter said:
No what we got here is a buncha empty argumentation. Every scripture I posted either states directly that Jesus is God or implies it. As I said every verse is supported by the entire early church and Christian scholars. Your endless repetition of "I'm right and you're wrong, Am too! Nuh Huh!" is meaningless.

what a scripture implies or doesn't imply is a matter of opinion. and you don't care about opiinions rememeber?

show us the scripture that says directly "Jesus is god." it aint there. it's your opinon, and to be fair, you shouldn't care what you think .

here's all you gotta do . quote the scirpture, and underline the words "jesus is god." course you know it aint there so you gotta say "NUH HUH>" good one professor.

John 8:58 and Trinitarians.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

angel duck

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

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Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

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angel duck

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

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