John 6 and Real Presence

[ZiSunka]

Is it appropriate for a Catholic to reply here? I'll do so until I hear differently.

First, regarding "the vine", "the door", "the shepard", etc., we can see clearly that these are metahpors because we know that people are not actually branches, nor actually sheep. No such knowledge prevents belief in the Real Presence, however. People do actually eat.

Regarding not eating blood, it involved eating the blood of creatures. Christ is not a creature. Further, the prohibition was put into place exactly to lay the foundation for understanding that in drinking His blood we take on His life.

Has anybody discussed Passover here? If so I missed it. The critical points of the Passover sacrifice involved not only killing the lamb, but eating it. Regarding Christ, the Lamb of God, the killing took place once, in history, but the eating of the sacrificial lamb continues, for all of His people, throughout time, must at least be offered the opportunity to partake of the sacrifice. Just as Passover continued until the lamb had been consumed, so Christ's sacrifice continues until The Lamb has been consumed.

One more point is that a figurative use of phrases such as eating one's flesh and drinking one's blood had a specific meaning in the culture of the day, and still today in cultures of that area. It meant something like attacking, insulting, reviling. Very negative connotations, nothing like "believe in me" or "follow my words".

Finally, John 6:51: "...and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." Christ doesn't say that the bread is His words, or faith in Him. He says the bread is His flesh. It was His actual flesh that hung upon the cross, and it is that same flesh, given for the life of the world, that He gives us to eat, and requires us to eat.

Anyway, that's one Catholic's understanding.

I don't think the OP was looking for the catholic perspective, since he is a recently former catholic.

But thanks for your response. We're not allowed to debate here or I would post scripture in response.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

not a necessary post anymore

 

[FLMike]

I don't think the OP was looking for the catholic perspective, since he is a recently former catholic.

But thanks for your response. We're not allowed to debate here or I would post scripture in response.

Yes, I went back and deleted my post, on further reading of the thread. Sorry for breaking the rules (through lack of understanding them, not through intent).

 

[ZiSunka]

Hey, it's okay. We'd love to have you come particiapte in some of our fellowship threads, like the Barnraising or The Person Below Me game.

 

[Lockheed]

Fellow Baptists,

These are fairly typical of the responses you see...

First, regarding "the vine", "the door", "the shepard", etc., we can see clearly that these are metahpors because we know that people are not actually branches, nor actually sheep. No such knowledge prevents belief in the Real Presence, however. People do actually eat.

The reply should be evident: But unless they're cannibals they don't eat the flesh and drink the blood of other humans.

John 6:51: "...and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." Christ doesn't say that the bread is His words, or faith in Him.

John 6 is prior to the initiation of the Eucharist (or Supper if you prefer) and it is not in view here. Also, note that Christ suggests that some can already eat of His flesh and drink of His blood... prior to the Supper being given. There's no way this passage can be used to support real presence given these facts. Finally:

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

Coming to Christ is 'partaking of His flesh' and believing in Him is "drinking of His blood". (See also Rom 3:25)

 

[Matthan]

Everyone is welcome here, even if a tiny bit of "improper" debate occurs. Looking ever to Christ is, or should be, all of our desires and goals. Discussion such as has occurred in this particular thread can only lead to a clearer, fuller, and more complete understanding of Christ's true message to us all.

Always remember that God's love is not Baptist, or Catholic, or Lutheran, or Orthodox, or anything else. It is available to everyone who truly wants it and is willing to give just a tiny bit of love in return. When that happens, the "mustard seed" of faith has been planted by God, and His fertile fields of truth will nurish the believer into a mature Christian, ready for His harvesters to gather in His time.

Matthan <J><

 

[Iollain]

Sort of, but I'm still confused. Do you know of any websites that can explain the Calvin/Reformed position? Do you treat the bread and wine/grape juice as if it was Christ Himself?

Diane

No, i didn't know that was Calvin/Reformed view. You mean as if i had the an actual piece of Jesus's flesh and His blood? No. I just take a piece of the matza, it must be matza cause it is the same thing in the Jewish section at the grocery store, and i take one of the little cups with the grape juice, and i sit quietly remembering what Jesus did on the cross, and the Last Supper, and i remember that someday there will be a big feast that we will have with Jesus, someday:

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

.......So He cannot be talking about drinking His own blood.




1Cr 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper.


1Cr 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.


1Cr 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise [you] not.


1Cr 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread:


1Cr 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.


1Cr 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.


1Cr 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.


1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.


1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.


1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


1Cr 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.


1Cr 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


The way we share in the body and blood of Christ is that He died in our place, and if we are dead in Him, in His death, then we have a hope of someday being risen with Him in His Ressurection.

Edit: just wanted to add, if God is spirtually present in the bread and wine, (as in a mystery) it is not like Christians have not handled this Spirit before, for He lives in us. You can't hold the Body of Christ up above His Spirit, for they are One and the same. There is nothing i would do differently if i believed this position.