John 3:16

[Fixation On God]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have eternal life."

If Limited Atonement is true, then why in Scripture does it state "Whosoever"?

 

[PT Calvinist]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have eternal life."

If Limited Atonement is true, then why in Scripture does it state "Whosoever"?

To invite all to partake of life and to eliminate excues from unbelievers. You musn't forget though, that just because "eternal life" is promised universally to "all who believe" in Christ, faith is not common to all.

 

[archierieus]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have eternal life."

If Limited Atonement is true, then why in Scripture does it state "Whosoever"?

The concept 'limited atonement' is itself inaccurate. The word itself is primarily an Old Testament concept, and is used extensively in the book of Leviticus. An atonement was made for the individual sinner, for the unknowing sins of the people, and for the Holy Places.

But as for Jn. 3:16, whosoever means exactly as it reads. EVERYONE is covered by Christ's death on the cross, and EVERYONE has the opportunity to believe and be saved. And, Giod appeals to everyone, draws everyone to Jesus, enlightens everyone, and does not want people to perish.

 

[PT Calvinist]

The concept 'limited atonement' is itself inaccurate.

Really?

But as for Jn. 3:16, whosoever means exactly as it reads. EVERYONE is covered by Christ's death on the cross, and EVERYONE has the opportunity to believe and be saved. And, God appeals to everyone, draws everyone to Jesus, enlightens everyone, and does not want people to perish.

Really? why then does Jesus at the Last supper say: "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."- Matthew 26:28
Notice the word 'many'. If your assumption is true, why didin't Jesus use the universal word 'all'?

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."- John 10:11
"even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."- John 10:15

Jesus died for "The Sheep", not the goats as seen in Matthew 25:32–33

 

[archierieus]

Really?

In terms of accurate termnology, yes.

Really? why then does Jesus at the Last supper say: "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."- Matthew 26:28
Notice the word 'many'. If your assumption is true, why didin't Jesus use the universal word 'all'?

The semantic range for polus includes all, freely, many, etc. Limitation cannot be specified on the basis of use of the word. Other Scriptures clarify, that is, Christ's death on the cross paid the price for all the sins of the world, see Paul's writings for example.

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."- John 10:11
"even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."- John 10:15

Jesus died for "The Sheep", not the goats as seen in Matthew 25:32–33

Pls show how the language in Jn. 10 is exclusive.

 

[PT Calvinist]

The semantic range for polus includes all, freely, many, etc. Limitation cannot be specified on the basis of use of the word. Other Scriptures clarify, that is, Christ's death on the cross paid the price for all the sins of the world, see Paul's writings for example.

Yes, but who is "the world"?

Please show how the language in John 10 is exclusive.

To my knowledge John 10 is not exclusive in the Greek

 

[archierieus]

Yes, but who is "the world"?

Gotta look up the reference, Paul says Jesus died for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for all the sins of the whole world.

To my knowledge John 10 is not exclusive in the Greek

Agreed. Grammatically there is no exclusivity. It could be understood either way, and would need to be compared with other Scripturres.

 

[PT Calvinist]

"Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors."- Isaiah 53:12

I'm sure we can agree that this is a prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bear the sins of many (not all).

And more importantly, what of where Jesus, in prayer, interceded for the ones given to Him and not those of the entire world?
"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;"- John 17:9

Also, in Ephesians 5:25–27, where the Church was purchased by Christ and not all people.

 

[Hammster]

The concept 'limited atonement' is itself inaccurate. The word itself is primarily an Old Testament concept, and is used extensively in the book of Leviticus. An atonement was made for the individual sinner, for the unknowing sins of the people, and for the Holy Places.

So then you are saying that the OT picture of atonement is not a type and shadow of what Christ did on the cross?

But as for Jn. 3:16, whosoever means exactly as it reads. EVERYONE is covered by Christ's death on the cross, and EVERYONE has the opportunity to believe and be saved. And, Giod appeals to everyone, draws everyone to Jesus, enlightens everyone, and does not want people to perish.

Can 'whosoever' mean a limited group of people?

 

[Fixation On God]

Can 'whosoever' mean a limited group of people?

collectively speaking, yes. Individually speaking, No.

 

[archierieus]

So then you are saying that the OT picture of atonement is not a type and shadow of what Christ did on the cross?

The OT picture of atonement is a type and shadow of the APPLICATION of what Christ did on the cross. They are two separate things.

Can 'whosoever' mean a limited group of people?

Same Greek word, pas/pan typically translated 'all,' 'every' 'whoever.' Context would often determine application, such as 'all the boys' or 'every living person' or 'all the world.'

The more relevant question would be the semantic range for this application of a very general word. In this case, God so loved the WORLD, which would impact the application of pan.

 

[archierieus]

"Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors."- Isaiah 53:12

Once again, 'many' is not determinative of the intended scope. It could mean all, or it could mean a group less than all. This would have to be studied in connection with other Scriptures.

'All' means 'all.' 'Many' could mean 'all' or 'less than all.' 'Some' means 'less than all.' If a student seeks a definitive answer in terms of limiting the scope of the word, then the only way to achieve that would be terminology such as, 'not for all' or 'some, not all' or 'many, but not all.' That language is not present. It does not say, 'some,' which would be definitive. Although if it said 'all,' I have a hunch that SOME would insist that ALL doesn't mean ALL! But in any case, it would be necessary here to compare other Scriptures.

And more importantly, what of where Jesus, in prayer, interceded for the ones given to Him and not those of the entire world?
"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;"- John 17:9

In John 17, Jesus prays for Himself, for His disciples, and for those who will believe because of their testimony. He prays for them because they are about to go through the great crisis of their faith, and if they survive that crisis, to begin their ministry to the entire world, for Jesus commissioned them to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living person, and promised to be with them as they carried out that commission. Thus, the great High Priestly prayer of Jesus in Jn. 17 was especially for His closest followers in the time of trial. Nowhere is there any suggestion that, outside of those special circumstances, Christ did not pray for the rest of the people in the world.

Also, in Ephesians 5:25–27, where the Church was purchased by Christ and not all people.

Where does it say 'and not all people'?

 

[Hammster]

The OT picture of atonement is a type and shadow of the APPLICATION of what Christ did on the cross. They are two separate things.

Please explain.

Same Greek word, pas/pan typically translated 'all,' 'every' 'whoever.' Context would often determine application, such as 'all the boys' or 'every living person' or 'all the world.'

The more relevant question would be the semantic range for this application of a very general word. In this case, God so loved the WORLD, which would impact the application of pan.

Okay. But all it says is "whosoever", or "all" that believe. What it doesn't say is that all are covered by His blood, which is what you implied when you said

EVERYONE is covered by Christ's death on the cross, and EVERYONE has the opportunity to believe and be saved. And, Giod appeals to everyone, draws everyone to Jesus, enlightens everyone, and does not want people to perish.

All the verse says is that everyone who does believe will have everlasting life. To make it say more than that is to read more into it than what is there.

 

[archierieus]

Please explain.

Christ's death was expiatory, but the expiation must be applied to the individual case to be effective, and that requires acceptance, as in 'whosoever believeth' should not perish. God has set 'believing' as the requirement for applying the benefits of Christ's sacrifice to the individual.

Okay. But all it says is "whosoever", or "all" that believe. What it doesn't say is that all are covered by His blood, which is what you implied when you said All the verse says is that everyone who does believe will have everlasting life. To make it say more than that is to read more into it than what is there.

Agreed, good point. If we are sticking with John 3:16, then what I posted goes beyond that.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Once again, 'many' is not determinative of the intended scope. It could mean all, or it could mean a group less than all. This would have to be studied in connection with other Scriptures.

'All' means 'all.' 'Many' could mean 'all' or 'less than all.' 'Some' means 'less than all.' If a student seeks a definitive answer in terms of limiting the scope of the word, then the only way to achieve that would be terminology such as, 'not for all' or 'some, not all' or 'many, but not all.' That language is not present. It does not say, 'some,' which would be definitive. Although if it said 'all,' I have a hunch that SOME would insist that ALL doesn't mean ALL! But in any case, it would be necessary here to compare other Scriptures.

Fair enough.

In John 17, Jesus prays for Himself, for His disciples, and for those who will believe because of their testimony. He prays for them because they are about to go through the great crisis of their faith, and if they survive that crisis, to begin their ministry to the entire world, for Jesus commissioned them to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living person, and promised to be with them as they carried out that commission. Thus, the great High Priestly prayer of Jesus in Jn. 17 was especially for His closest followers in the time of trial. Nowhere is there any suggestion that, outside of those special circumstances, Christ did not pray for the rest of the people in the world.

Yes, I am aware that He was praying for His diciples' favor with God the Father.
He openly says that He does not pray for the world because He only has concern about His flock, which He recieved from the Father.

Where does it say 'and not all people'?

It dosen't. What I meant by that last phrase was that, it dosen't say that all people are included, no where in that scripture does it say all people or anything of the sort. It say's "He gave himself up for the Church" not "all people"

 

[heymikey80]

The concept 'limited atonement' is itself inaccurate. The word itself is primarily an Old Testament concept, and is used extensively in the book of Leviticus. An atonement was made for the individual sinner, for the unknowing sins of the people, and for the Holy Places.

But as for Jn. 3:16, whosoever means exactly as it reads. EVERYONE is covered by Christ's death on the cross, and EVERYONE has the opportunity to believe and be saved. And, Giod appeals to everyone, draws everyone to Jesus, enlightens everyone, and does not want people to perish.

"whosoever" is modified by a participle: "believing".

You're saying it covers everyone. He's saying it only covers everyone believing.

Btw, the verb is subjunctive, too: "may not perish" -- not "shall not perish". That seems to twist everyone in knots "on its face."

 

[archierieus]

Fair enough.


Yes, I am aware that He was praying for His diciples' favor with God the Father.
He openly says that He does not pray for the world because He only has concern about His flock, which He recieved from the Father.

His focus in ch. 17 is on His disciples. For them He is praying in the hour of their need. Because He is praying for them, but not at that time for the world, does not, on its face, mean that He did not pray for the world at other times. Nowhere does it say that.

It dosen't. What I meant by that last phrase was that, it dosen't say that all people are included, no where in that scripture does it say all people or anything of the sort.

It does indeed, in many places. But for me, not at 11:25 at night. Time to hit the hay.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

"whosoever" is modified by a participle: "believing".

pas ho pisteuwn, everyone who believes or every one believing.

You're saying it covers everyone. He's saying it only covers everyone believing.

Different application. My post went beyond Jn. 3:16. Christ died for all the world, for everyone, but whosoever believes in Him will not perish.

Btw, the verb is subjunctive, too: "may not perish" -- not "shall not perish". That seems to twist everyone in knots "on its face."

the Divine subjunctive, should not often has the meaning of will not, even in the Queen's English.

 

[Epiphoskei]

The concept 'limited atonement' is itself inaccurate. The word itself is primarily an Old Testament concept, and is used extensively in the book of Leviticus. An atonement was made for the individual sinner, for the unknowing sins of the people, and for the Holy Places.

There are no primarily Old Testament concepts. It all exists primarily for fulfillment in the New Testament. The sacrificial system in particular exists to prefigure Christ's work: a particular and efficacious redemption.

But as for Jn. 3:16, whosoever means exactly as it reads. EVERYONE is covered by Christ's death on the cross, and EVERYONE has the opportunity to believe and be saved. And, Giod appeals to everyone, draws everyone to Jesus, enlightens everyone, and does not want people to perish.

This is not a syntactically sound undertanding of John 3:16. The Greek certainly doesn't speak about possibility of belief one way or another, and not even the English ought to lead one in this direction. "Whoever" is a relative pronoun defined as all people who meet the condition in the relative clause. In this relative clause, it means all those who believe.

I honestly can't see why people think they can take "whosoever" to mean that everyone has the ability to meet the requirement in the relative clause. We never use it that way in any other usage. If I say "whoever has a proper ID badge can get past the checkpoint," I do not mean to say everyone can have an ID badge, I mean to say everyone must have an ID badge. That's all.

John 3:16 is one of the shortest and clearest definitions of Limited Atonement you can get. God loved the world this way: He gave His son to save all believers. What about that implies an atonement that extends beyond salvation?

 

[nobdysfool]

There are no primarily Old Testament concepts. The sacrificial system in particular exists to prefigure Christ's work: a particular and efficacious redemption.



This is not a syntactically sound undertanding of John 3:16. The Greek certainly doesn't speak about possibility of belief one way or another, and not even the English ought to lead one in this direction. "Whoever" is a relative pronoun defined as all people who meet the condition in the relative clause, in this case, those who believe.

I honestly can't see why people think they can take "whosoever" to mean that everyone has the ability to meet the requirement in the relative clause. We never use it that way in any other usage. If I say "whoever has a proper ID badge can get past the checkpoint," I do not mean to say everyone can have an ID badge, I mean to say everyone must have an ID badge. That's all.

John 3:16 is one of the shortest and clearest definitions of Limited Atonement you can get. God loved the world this way: He gave His son to save all believers. What about that implies an atonement that extends beyond salvation?

Absolutely correct! Well said!