John 17

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

I am some what confused by the way this portion of Scripture is explained. I posted this on the OBOB also to get thier take on this passage. What is your understanding of this passage as it relates to "one-ness".

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.



Thank you for your time.

BBAS

 

[InquisitorKind]

What is your understanding of this passage as it relates to "one-ness".

The term is vague if it stands by itself, although it probably refers to a kind of unity. With that in mind, look to other Scripture to determine the meaning of "one-ness." For example, Luke 9:49-50 indicates that Christ can't be referring to a kind of unity that's dependent on organizational structure (see also 1 Corinthians 11:18).

~Matt

 

[theseed]

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

It's a prayer for unity. In John, we see that The Son is perfectly united with The Father in purpose. So too, does Christ want all of us to be united. In John 13.35, Jesus said

"By this will all men know that you are my disciples if you love one another"

 

[theseed]

John 10
30I and the Father are one."


This is seen by the works that Jesus did (vs 24) they are united in purpose.

 

[Phoebe]

That we are united in mind and purpose, I would think. (to further the kingdom)

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day all,

Thank you for your input. Do you think there is unity in purpose for those whom Jesus prayed for? If not how did you come to that observation? If there is by what standard did you use?

Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[Boanerge]

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.





What exactly does He mean by "I sanctify Myself"?

 

[BBAS 64]

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

What exactly does He mean by "I sanctify Myself"?

Good Day, Boanerge

Just a start Chroysostom:

Ver. 19. "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified in the truth."

What is, "I sanctify Myself"? "I offer to Thee a sacrifice." Now all sacrifices are called "holy," and those are specially called "holy things," which are laid up for God. For whereas of old in type the sanctification was by the sheep, but now it is not3 in type, but by the truth itself, He therefore saith, "That they may be sanctified in Thy truth." "For I both dedicate them to Thee, and make them an offering"; this He saith, either because their Head was being made so,4 or because they also were sacrificed; for, "Present," it saith, "your bodies a living sacrifice, holy" (Rom. xii. 1); and, "We were counted as sheep for the slaughter." (Ps. xliv. 22.) And He maketh them; without death, a sacrifice and offering; for that He alluded to His own sacrifice, when He said, "I sanctify," is clear from what follows.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-14/npnf1-14-86.htm#P4658_1541563

On My way out for the day, Hope this will help some.

Bill

 

[Serapha]

Hi there!



I had this same discussion just a couple of days ago with a "non-trinitarian".


We both claimed the attributes of God in each person of the trinity... but the difference came in the meaning of "oneness".


Many people, without realizing it, view the trinity as a "three-leaf" clover, that they are three independent persons, joined at some point... but that is the wrong image because it gives the indication that they are not in "oneness" in all things or at all times. One leaf of the clover can flutter without affecting the other leaves. That isn't the case in the Trinity ... one person of the Godhead isn't going to do anything that isn't a part of the other persons of the Godhead.


The "oneness" is as "light"... in that there are three types of light, and none of the "lights" will exist without the properties of the totality of the light. They permeate each other, co-exist in a oneness of unity, yes, but it is more than that... for it is not possible to be "light" without the unity and entirity of the persons of the Trinity.


~serapha~

 

[Crazy Liz]

Hi there!



I had this same discussion just a couple of days ago with a "non-trinitarian".


We both claimed the attributes of God in each person of the trinity... but the difference came in the meaning of "oneness".


Many people, without realizing it, view the trinity as a "three-leaf" clover, that they are three independent persons, joined at some point... but that is the wrong image because it gives the indication that they are not in "oneness" in all things or at all times. One leaf of the clover can flutter without affecting the other leaves. That isn't the case in the Trinity ... one person of the Godhead isn't going to do anything that isn't a part of the other persons of the Godhead.


The "oneness" is as "light"... in that there are three types of light, and none of the "lights" will exist without the properties of the totality of the light. They permeate each other, co-exist in a oneness of unity, yes, but it is more than that... for it is not possible to be "light" without the unity and entirity of the persons of the Trinity.


~serapha~

Serapha, I don't understand exactly how this relates to the OP. I may be mistaken about your intent, but it sounds to me like maybe you are saying unity means we must agree on what is the best metaphor for the Trinity?

Maybe you could explain a little more or give a more concrete example.