John 17:20-23 Complete Unity?

[Prodigal Son2]

What is meant by complete unity in verse 23? I ask this question because I have been troubled this past year since the Lord brought me back (a prodigal son) regarding the many denominations and their theological differences (mainly salvation). Eph 4:3-5 keeps playing in my head. What is the Truth? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Ih8s8n]

Prodigal Son2: Of course, it is God's desire that we be like-minded (according to the mind of Christ), all in one accord, etc., etc. At the same time, however, reality dictates that such is obviously not the case. The problem is not at God's end, as He has made the Holy Spirit, the Sprit of truth, available to all who genuinely desire Him. No, the problem, unfortunately, is at man's end. Wrong motives. Charlatans. False prophets. False brethren. Wolves in sheep's clothing. Etc., etc. In other words, "Not all that glitters is gold". Anyhow, continue to develop your own personal relationship with the Father through Jesus Christ and continue to earnestly seek to be led by His Spirit and then hold on for the ride. Although it gets rather "bumpy" at times, God's grace is sufficient for you.

Take care.

P.S. Welcome home, prodigal.

 

[Sarrapin]

What is meant by complete unity in verse 23? I ask this question because I have been troubled this past year since the Lord brought me back (a prodigal son) regarding the many denominations and their theological differences (mainly salvation). Eph 4:3-5 keeps playing in my head. What is the Truth? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I think that it refers to the larger unity - that we all exist to serve Jesus in His universal Church. Our primary mission is to preach the Good News to a lost world, and I think that what Jesus is saying here is that the individual identity and mission of individual groups within Christianity should never blind us to the real purpose of the Church.

As an example, a few years ago Pastor Greg Laurie came into my local city and it was incredible and good to see all the different types of churches work in unity to make the event as much of a success that it was. I think that this is what Jesus was praying for - that kind of unity and love that we can put aside our differences and work together for the Kingdom.

In Christ it doesn't matter if you are Catholic, pentecostal, Baptist, or whatever. I don't think that it's possible on this side of eternity that every Christian will believe the same thing on secondary or unimportant doctrines as we are fallen people with incomplete knowledge. So long as we believe the core doctrines and can work together, I think that is all that really matters.

Edit: To put it differently, I think that John Ritenbaugh put it well: "Christ's request [in John 17] refers to a oneness in unity, as a unit, of agreement."

 

[Secundulus]

This might help.

Jude 1:11-13

NAS|Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

Rebellion of Korah: See Numbers 16.

See also 1 Cor 1:10

NAS|Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

The question you have to answer for yourself is whether Jesus and the Apostles wrote of unity as a simple rhetorical exercise or whether they meant what they said. If they meant it then you have to answer whether or not fulfilling their word is possible today, and if it is possible, where and how it may be fulfilled.

 

[Rick Otto]

What is meant by complete unity in verse 23? I ask this question because I have been troubled this past year since the Lord brought me back (a prodigal son) regarding the many denominations and their theological differences (mainly salvation). Eph 4:3-5 keeps playing in my head. What is the Truth? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I would advise keeping your standard of unity a matter of who is keeping the 2 greatest commandments & letting the whole mess sort itself out along those lines.
I'm post-denominational, but I think the canons of Dordt express a soteriology closest to scripture.

 

[sunlover1]

What is meant by complete unity in verse 23? I ask this question because I have been troubled this past year since the Lord brought me back (a prodigal son) regarding the many denominations and their theological differences (mainly salvation). Eph 4:3-5 keeps playing in my head. What is the Truth? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I think v 21 gives a clearer idea.
That kind of "oneness" that is found in marriage
(The two shall become one flesh)
21that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee;
that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.

I'm with you about denominationalism and in fact I believe that division is heretical.
1 Cor 3, 1 Corinthians 11...

This is an awesome passage and you CAN do this, even with division all around you!
If each of us extends love to ALL Christians, and teach others to do so., well at least
we will have made a dent.
1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


Not sure which "truth" you were looking for??

 

[Prodigal Son2]

Thanks for all the replies! I'm hoping to explore even more so I'll ask each of you a question...
@Ih8s8n-"At the same time, however, reality dictates that such is obviously not the case." I agree with you! If man is the problem then what is the solution? Maybe we need to be more like the Bereans (Acts 17:11) and examine the scriptures to find out if what ______ said was true?

@Sarrapin-"So long as we believe the core doctrines and can work together, I think that is all that really matters." Again, I agree! What are the core doctrines?

@Secundulus-"The question you have to answer for yourself is whether Jesus and the Apostles wrote of unity as a simple rhetorical exercise or whether they meant what they said." I believe that the audience is made up of regular guys like me who wholeheartedly desire to follow Christ and hold His Words as the Truth. I believe He meant what He said. If that's the case then what is meant by Eph 4:3-5, I Cor 1:10 and on and on? I believe we are so far from the complete unity that the Lord Himself prayed for before the Father. We seem to follow leaders more than the Word Himself. We almost deify them by naming denominations after them. In some cases, their words supersede the Holy Scriptures! It pains my heart and I see the seeds of confusion that Satan has sown. We have thorn bushes blocking us from true unity that would shine the Love of Jesus to all men.

@Rick Otto-Thanks for pointing me to the Canons of Dordt. The thing that struck me was that you really need to be a scholar to really understand the concepts that were written in it. This troubles me because it is harder to understand than the Bible. I am not saying that the Canons of Dordt or any other canon are wrong. I would like to have things explained so that unschooled, ordinary men can understand them (Acts 4:13).

I believe we get in trouble when we try to see who is the smartest and not who is the most true according to Scripture. If we only humbled ourselves like little children and let the Spirit guide us in truth! I believe the first century disciples had that unity even if it was for only a little while. When we study Church History we can see the deterioration over time as men thought more of themselves than they ought.

@sunlover1-"This is an awesome passage and you CAN do this, even with division all around you!
If each of us extends love to ALL Christians, and teach others to do so., well at least
we will have made a dent." Through the Holy Spirit and speaking the truth in love, yes we can!

Brothers and Sisters, I have been praying everyday with tears that the Lord will make us one. I am not here to make argument for arguments sake. I truly believe that Satan has deceived us and wants nothing more than for us to remain divided. Jesus on the other hand wants complete unity: oneness with the Trinity! He knows that when we are united the world will know that the Father sent Him and loves them as He loves His Son! The Trinity is not divided and neither should we! Let us help each other by being humble servants to each other and praying to our Father for wisdom and insight. Thanks to all for helping!

 

[sunlover1]

Through the Holy Spirit and speaking the truth in love, yes we can!

Amen.. Yes we can!
Hmm, seems like I've heard that before

Brothers and Sisters, I have been praying everyday with tears that the Lord will make us one. I am not here to make argument for arguments sake. I truly believe that Satan has deceived us and wants nothing more than for us to remain divided. Jesus on the other hand wants complete unity: oneness with the Trinity! He knows that when we are united the world will know that the Father sent Him and loves them as He loves His Son! The Trinity is not divided and neither should we! Let us help each other by being humble servants to each other and praying to our Father for wisdom and insight. Thanks to all for helping!

Jesus prayed this same prayer!
I have asked several people if they believe
that God answered Jesus' prayer. Not once
has anyone answered me..
I am gonna have to go with yeah, I do believe
that God has answered Jesus' prayer ..

 

[BrendanMark]

Achievement of the unio mystica through spiritual and ecclesial communion (koinonia in Greek) is the basic life and experience of the Christian, individually and collectively.

81. Until our minds in purity have transcended our own being and that of all things sequent to God, we have not yet acquired a permanent state of holiness. When this noble state has, by means of love, been established in us, we shall know the power of the divine promise. For we must believe that where the intellect, taking the lead, has by means of love rooted its power, there the saints will find a changeless abode. He who has not transcended himself and all that is in any way subject to intellection, and has not come to abide in the silence beyond intellection, cannot be entirely free from change.

82. . . . he who has advanced altogether beyond intellection, and has renounced it because he has transcended it, has come to dwell to some extent in unity.
Maximus the Confessor – First Century on Theology and the Incarnate Dispensation of the Son of God [Philokalia Volume 2, Faber & Faber 1981 p132]

 

[Prodigal Son2]

Achievement of the unio mystica through spiritual and ecclesial communion (koinonia in Greek) is the basic life and experience of the Christian, individually and collectively.

81. Until our minds in purity have transcended our own being and that of all things sequent to God, we have not yet acquired a permanent state of holiness. When this noble state has, by means of love, been established in us, we shall know the power of the divine promise. For we must believe that where the intellect, taking the lead, has by means of love rooted its power, there the saints will find a changeless abode. He who has not transcended himself and all that is in any way subject to intellection, and has not come to abide in the silence beyond intellection, cannot be entirely free from change.

82. . . . he who has advanced altogether beyond intellection, and has renounced it because he has transcended it, has come to dwell to some extent in unity.
Maximus the Confessor – First Century on Theology and the Incarnate Dispensation of the Son of God [Philokalia Volume 2, Faber & Faber 1981 p132]

Help me to understand because what you are quoting is more complex than most scriptures in the Bible. In other words, pretend I'm a young child or an uneducated, ordinary man (Acts 4:13).

I thought of these verses after reading your quotes, Philip 3:12-16, " 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

 

[BrendanMark]

It's basic prayer/mediation/contemplation. It's also the purification of the mind Plato says is essential to wisdom and philosophy. The silence and stillness of thoughts - of ego and Self, to die to the world - awakens the spiritual consciousness in human beings. This is as true for Buddhists as for Christians. That Christianity includes both the transcendent as well as the immanent via the Two Natures (Incarnation. God became really human) means that Christian prayer and communion is qualitatively distinct (and superior. No other religion has both) from all other human spirituality and religion.

Within this context of epistemological ascent, which has brought the mind through knowledge to silence, we see the specific function of faith: Gregory says that faith ‘unites the searching mind to the incomprehensible God’. Faith, then, is Gregory’s term for that faculty of union between mind and God.

Union, however, is not the only function faith performs; faith also mediates. Just as faith performs the function of union between mind and God, so faith mediates between mind and God. Faith mediates knowledge to the mind knowledge of a discursive sort: namely, that God is greater than any symbol by which he can be known. Hence, while we are in the context of an apophatic ascent of the mind, and faith is the zenith of this ascent, grasping in union the divine essence, the mind is not left with nothing. Faith gives the discursive mind something of what it ‘knows’; it is obliged, [as Canévet has stated,] to translate itself into discursive thoughts. The discursive mind receives ‘the likeness of gold’ , that is, the knowledge that God is greater than any symbol that can be known, but this is not ‘gold itself’ (the divine nature), that is, the non-discursive experience of, indeed union with, the divine nature by faith alone.
Laird, Martin – Gregory of Nyssa and the grasp of Faith – Union, Knowledge and Divine Presence [Oxford Early Christian Studies 2004 p. 73]

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

What is meant by complete unity in verse 23? I ask this question because I have been troubled this past year since the Lord brought me back (a prodigal son) regarding the many denominations and their theological differences (mainly salvation). Eph 4:3-5 keeps playing in my head. What is the Truth? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Well, what denominations actually claim to be the One True Church -- the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Catholic Church, and a couple small groups (SDA, Mormons, various Fundamentalists, etc.). Everyone else is just throwing out their personal opinions, what is the point of that? This group makes up a "Statement of Faith" and various "Position Statements" and another one makes up a contrary one, who cares about their personal opinions?

Eliminating various small sects claiming to have a prophet from God telling them some new revelation (which would be contrary to what Christ established, which was for all people, for all time), leaves you between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Then you have to examine the claims of each and determine which is the more reasonable.

Jesus didn't just come and say "I'm God!" and expect people to believe Him. Then He would be no different than any nutjob on the corner saying the same thing. He said:

Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

Jesus said we should examine His credentials and make a reasoned choice to believe Him based on the miracles He did (most clearly, His Resurrection). Therefore, your faith should be a reasonable one based on evidence and logic. The best example of this is St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, it's almost impossible to read it straight through but it's your resource for most questions on the faith. Then you look at the evidence of Catholic saints throughout the ages -- clearly and dramatically holy men and women -- they are part of the evidence of the holiness of the Catholic religion. If you can look at these men and women and read what they have wrote and their life stories and not see the hand of God, then "believe me not"; but if you do see something special, something Godly, you can't deny that there is something going on here, some holiness present in the Catholic Church.