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John 17:12

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jlecaroz

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John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Does this son of perdition refer to Judas Iscariot...If so, can we infer that Judas is in Hell?

Thanks for your help.

Justin
 

johnd

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jlecaroz said:
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Does this son of perdition refer to Judas Iscariot...If so, can we infer that Judas is in Hell?

Thanks for your help.

Justin

A very good question.

Acts 1:25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place
 
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johnd

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2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is the only other verse in the Bible that contains that name and it is applied to the false messiah (most call antichrist).
 
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J21

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The NT uses this phrase, "the son of perdition" twice. The first is within John 17:12 and refers as originally questioned to Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Jesus and the other is within 2Thessalonians 2:3, referring to the "man of sin /man of lawlessness who is seen to be the Antichrist as noted in the post of johnd above.
 
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James1979

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Son of peridition is pointing to Satan as 2 Thess 2:3, as he is the father of all the unsaved, lost. So John 17:12 is speaking spiritually as God is our Father and we are his children or sons of God or Satan if we are still in his kingdom and have not been removed from his kingdom unto the Lord Jesus Christ kingdom(Colossians 1:13) then Satan is our Father rather than the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Hell does not exist yet because there has not been a trial for the unsaved yet.The trial and judgment day will be at the end of the world, then God will pass the sentence to the unsaved to spend an eternity in the lake of fire forevermore.

Similiar to our judicial system, we simply cannot throw a lawbreaker into jail and give him a sentence without going through a trial to give evidence that the lawbreak is guilty. That's why in Revelation is talks about Jesus sitting on the white throne opening up the books which contain all records of each sin that have been committed.
 
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johnd

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Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

???

The tense of the Greek for "prepared" is perfect = meaning done once in the past for all time.

Notice also that when it was prepared, it was originally prepared for the devil and his angels with no mention of the humanity Jesus is speaking of sending there. So, hell (the lake of fire) does in fact already exist.
 
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James1979

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I look up the greek word as well it says "to make ready, prepare, get everything ready"

The greek word for angels is aggelos which means messenger, an angel, one who is sent. So in this context it is speaking of the unsaved souls who also will be spending an eternity in the eternal fire, lake of fire forevermore.

Satan has ministers of righteousness does he not?

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

You see, here comes Satan looking just like Christ and his messengers are under the authority of Satan as they are deceiving and preaching false doctrine to lead the sheep astray. Plus you have to read the whole chapter 25 from the very beginning about the ten virgins and its applying to only the saved and unsaved as they are in view of distributing the gospel as one is saving lives and the other is leading to death, second death that is. Then you'll see that God sends the unsaved with the devil and the rest of the angels into the eternal fire.
 
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jlecaroz

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johnd said:
A very good question.

Acts 1:25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place

Thanks to all so far for the excellent explanations :)

John 13:27a And after the sop Satan entered in to him.

Does this mean he had no control over what he did? If so, would Judas be held accountable for what Satan did while he was within Judas?

Thanks again
Justin
 
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johnd

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jlecaroz said:
Thanks to all so far for the excellent explanations :)

John 13:27a And after the sop Satan entered in to him.

Does this mean he had no control over what he did? If so, would Judas be held accountable for what Satan did while he was within Judas?

Thanks again
Justin

You are quite welcome.

To answer your question I believe it best to let the Bible (in this case the Lord Jesus himself) speak:

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
 
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jlecaroz

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johnd said:
You are quite welcome.

To answer your question I believe it best to let the Bible (in this case the Lord Jesus himself) speak:

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Wow, Thanks! :thumbsup:
 
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dcyates

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Nobody can be sure, of course, why Judas sold Jesus out, although according to John's Gospel, he already had a reputation for dipping into the poor box from time to time, so the cash may have been part of it. If, like the other disciples, he was perennially worried about where he stood in the pecking order, he may also have been reacting to some imagined slight. Maybe he thought his job as treasurer to the outfit was beneath him. Another possibility is that he had gotten fed up with waiting for Jesus to take the world be storm and hoped that betraying him might force him to show his hand at last. Or maybe, because nothin human is ever uncomplicated, something of all of these is involved. Anyway, whatever his reasons were, the whole thing went sour for him soon enough.
Slipping out of the last supper before the party was over, he led the way to the garden that he knew they were planning to adjourn to afterwards and said to lay low till he gave the signal. It was dark by the time his former associates showed up and maybe for fear that he might scare them off if he used any other method, the way he showed the soldiers which was the one to jump was by kissing him. That was all he'd been paid to do, and as soon as he'd done it, there was no earthly reason why he couldn't have taken off with his laundered cash and found a place to spend it. But when the time came, he wasn't in the mood.
There are several versions of what he did instead, of which the most psychologically plausible seems to be that he gave the money back to the ones who'd given it to him and went out and hanged himself. This time there doesn't seem to be any ambiguity concerning the motive.
There is a tradition in the early church, however, that his suicide was based not on despair but on hope. If God was just (which he surely is), then he knew there was no question as to where he would be heading as soon as he'd breathed his last. Furthermore, if God was merciful (which he also surely is), he knew there was no question either that in a last-ditch effort to save the souls of the damned as God's son, Jesus would be down there too. Thus the way Judas figured it, hell might be the lst chance he'd have of making it to heaven, so to get there as soon as possible, he tied the rope around his neck and kicked away the stool. Who knows?
In any case, it's a scene to conjure with. Once again they met in the shadows, the two old friends, both of them a little worse for wear after all that had happened, only this time it was Jesus who was the one to give the kiss, and this time it wasn't the kiss of death that was given.
 
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