John 14 Misinterpretation

[Christian Knight]

John 14:6 - "I am the way, the truth, and the life; No man cometh unto the father but by me."

So many Christian have used this verse to establish the absolute authority of Christianity. So many Christians would accuse non-Christians of taking verses from the holy bible out of context to suit their purposes, but I feel that the Christian leaders have taken this verse out of context to support their agenda.

I suggest all who are interested to read all of John 14. I believe that Jesus was in fact stating that his teachings would lead anyone who followed them to God. That God is good and the only way to know God is to be good also.

John 14:20 - "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

Jesus just stated that we are all one.

John 14:17 - "Even the spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you."

We cannot know God in the flesh, but we do know God, and God is in us. Remember, the Holy Spirit is God, and that is what this verse is referring to.

John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you."

The Holy Spirit is the teacher of all men. Again, when Jesus uses "my name" here I believe it to mean his nature, which is good, which is what God is. Do not forget that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one. I would not call it a trinity, though, because God encompasses all, and Jesus stated as much with his words in John 14.

So, my point is that when Christians say that good works are not enough to come to the father, and that only through Jesus can anyone ever hope to reach heaven, I think it is fair to make note that they are both the same thing.

All that is good returns to its source, which is God, and all that is evil is cast into the Lake of Fire, where it ceases to exist. Which reminds me, Hell is another misinterpretation of many Christians - what Hell is and what actually is cast into Hell is an area of profound confusion, in my humble opinion. I will save that one for another day, though.

All I have written here is not to say that Jesus was not special, because as history has made clear he was very special. I believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of God, in that he is the ultimate example from God for us to follow during our time in the flesh, and therefore the sacrifice of Jesus was holy. In that sense of perfection, he is the only begotten son of God, but that does not change the fact that we are all sons and daughters of God.

I know what I believe, but I would like to read why I am wrong about this from those who disagree.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

I think you're broadly right.

You have to look at this statement in the light of John's developing revelation of Jesus in his gospel:

John 1:9

The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Lights every man - Not just those who believe a particular set of propositions. But wherever folk are enlightened to what is right and good, it is this Light who enlightens them. And when they follow that enlightenment, they follow that Light.

John goes on to talk about salvation and judgement in these terms:

John 3:19-21

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

Yes, access to God is through this Person, but we do not have to know His name. Jesus' claims of exclucivisity are correct; He and He alone is the reconciler between God and Man. But it is a far cry from that to saying that anyone who doesn't 'become a Christian' and sign on the correct dotted line is doomed to Hell. It is our attitude to the Light, to Grace and Truth, to Right and Wrong that matters. This is not salvation by works; it is not by doing the right things that God accepts us, but rather by our attitude - do we turn away from, or receive, the Light?

(from my website)

 

[theseed]

John 14.6 is just one of many, many examples in John that claim Christ is the only way for salvation. In fact, it is a re-occuring theme.

 

[theseed]

So, my point is that when Christians say that good works are not enough to come to the father, and that only through Jesus can anyone ever hope to reach heaven, I think it is fair to make note that they are both the same thing.

Good works do not save, only faith does (See Romans 4, Ephes. 2).

All that is good returns to its source, which is God, and all that is evil is cast into the Lake of Fire, where it ceases to exist. Which reminds me, Hell is another misinterpretation of many Christians - what Hell is and what actually is cast into Hell is an area of profound confusion, in my humble opinion. I will save that one for another day, though.

Traditionally, the Jews have believed in hell (Ghenna) has well.

The use of the definate article in John 14.6, combined with the word "only" should leave no doubt that only Christ can free us from our sin and save us. In deed, the leader of the Apostles, St Peter, preached, "There is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4.12).

 

[Charlie V]

Traditionally, the Jews have believed in hell (Ghenna) has well.

They all believed in Gehenna, they all knew for a fact it existed. They had seen it with their own eyes.

Gehenna is a valley south of Jeruselum. In Old Testament times, the valley was a place where children were sacrificed to the Ba'al. By New Testament times, it was converted into a garbage incinerating dump. There, a fire was kept constantly burning and people would bring their refuse to throw into the fire. The bodies of criminals were sometimes ordered thrown into the fire by the Sanhedrim.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Here's a picture of Gehenna as it looks today.

 

[apenman]

So, my point is that when Christians say that good works are not enough to come to the father, and that only through Jesus can anyone ever hope to reach heaven, I think it is fair to make note that they are both the same thing.

Yes, you are correct, they are the same thing.

 

[theseed]

They all believed in Gehenna, they all knew for a fact it existed. They had seen it with their own eyes.

Gehenna is a valley south of Jeruselum. In Old Testament times, the valley was a place where children were sacrificed to the Ba'al. By New Testament times, it was converted into a garbage incinerating dump. There, a fire was kept constantly burning and people would bring their refuse to throw into the fire. The bodies of criminals were sometimes ordered thrown into the fire by the Sanhedrim.

Charlie

They used the term metaphorically, just as we use heaven metaphorically/generically for the abode of the saved. Heaven is actually the sky and outerspace.

 

[theseed]

Lights every man - Not just those who believe a particular set of propositions. But wherever folk are enlightened to what is right and good, it is this Light who enlightens them. And when they follow that enlightenment, they follow that Light.

Actually, I think in the Greek it means the light that enlightens everyman. Hence, there is no other Light.

Yes, access to God is through this Person, but we do not have to know His name. Jesus' claims of exclucivisity are correct; He and He alone is the reconciler between God and Man. But it is a far cry from that to saying that anyone who doesn't 'become a Christian' and sign on the correct dotted line is doomed to Hell. It is our attitude to the Light, to Grace and Truth, to Right and Wrong that matters. This is not salvation by works; it is not by doing the right things that God accepts us, but rather by our attitude - do we turn away from, or receive, the Light?

It's possible to be regenerated, or born from above (John 3.3, 5), and not know Christ explicitly, or be able to express it verbally. John The Baptist was born again/above from the womb. However, it is not unreasonable to expect that someone born from above will recognize the Truth of Jesus Christ, and get on thier knees and declare him Lord.

 

[Charlie V]

They used the term metaphorically, just as we use heaven metaphorically/generically for the abode of the saved. Heaven is actually the sky and outerspace.

I beg to differ. The Gehenna passages were about the punishment of man by the Sanhedrim, punishment by fire in the valley of Hinnom, Gehenna.

The passages were later mistranslated.

Charlie

 

[theseed]

I beg to differ. The Gehenna passages were about the punishment of man by the Sanhedrim, punishment by fire in the valley of Hinnom, Gehenna.

The passages were later mistranslated.

Charlie

Hinnom

a deep, narrow ravine separating Mount Zion from the so-called "Hill of Evil
Counsel." It took its name from "some ancient hero, the son of Hinnom." It is
first mentioned in Josh. 15:8. It had been the place where the idolatrous Jews
burned their children alive to Moloch and Baal. A particular part of the valley
was called Tophet, or the "fire-stove," where the children were burned. After
the Exile, in order to show their abhorrence of the locality, the Jews made
this valley the receptacle of the offal of the city, for the destruction of
which a fire was, as is supposed, kept constantly burning there. The Jews
associated with this valley these two ideas, (1) that of the sufferings of the
victims that had there been sacrificed; and (2) that of filth and corruption.
It became thus to the popular mind a symbol of the abode of the wicked
hereafter. It came to signify hell as the place of the wicked. "It might be
shown by infinite examples that the Jews expressed hell, or the place of the
damned, by this word. The word Gehenna [the Greek contraction of Hinnom] was
never used in the time of Christ in any other sense than to denote the place of
future punishment." About this fact there can be no question. In this sense the
word is used eleven times in our Lord's discourses (Matt. 23:33; Luke 12:5;
Matt. 5:22, etc.).


Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

 

[Charlie V]

Hinnom

a deep, narrow ravine separating Mount Zion from the so-called "Hill of Evil
Counsel." It took its name from "some ancient hero, the son of Hinnom." It is first mentioned in Josh. 15:8. It had been the place where the idolatrous Jews burned their children alive to Moloch and Baal. A particular part of the valley was called Tophet, or the "fire-stove," where the children were burned. After the Exile, in order to show their abhorrence of the locality, the Jews made this valley the receptacle of the offal of the city, for the destruction of which a fire was, as is supposed, kept constantly burning there. The Jews associated with this valley these two ideas, (1) that of the sufferings of the victims that had there been sacrificed; and (2) that of filth and corruption. It became thus to the popular mind a symbol of the abode of the wicked hereafter. It came to signify hell as the place of the wicked. "It might be shown by infinite examples that the Jews expressed hell, or the place of the damned, by this word. The word Gehenna [the Greek contraction of Hinnom] was never used in the time of Christ in any other sense than to denote the place of future punishment." About this fact there can be no question. In this sense the word is used eleven times in our Lord's discourses (Matt. 23:33; Luke 12:5; Matt. 5:22, etc.).


Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Of course Easton's Bible Dictionary is going to defend the false position the church has held for many years.

They provide no proof of their claim. While they admit that the word literally refers to the valley of Hinnom, they provide no evidence that it had any other meaning. Shall we simply accept the Infallible Word of Easton, circa 1897? Is Easton's Word the Word of God?

I can provide sources which state otherwise, sources which state that Gehenna does indeed mean, the valley of Hinnom. But if we stick with the Greek Scriptures and nothing more, the whole argument falls apart. The Greek Scriptures say "gehenna," that's the valley of Hinnom, and that is that.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

For example:

Young's Literal Translation:

Mat 5:22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
Mat 5:23 `If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee,
Mat 5:24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go -- first be reconciled to thy brother, and then having come bring thy gift.
Mat 5:25 `Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him, that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and to prison thou mayest be cast, Mat 5:26 verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.
Mat 5:27 `Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not commit adultery;
Mat 5:28 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 `But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
Mat 5:30 `And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

These passages, in context, is referring to the judgment of the Sanhedrim, which has authority to order a person thrown into the fires in the valley of Hinnom.

Charlie

 

[theseed]

For example:

Young's Literal Translation:

Mat 5:22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
Mat 5:23 `If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee,
Mat 5:24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go -- first be reconciled to thy brother, and then having come bring thy gift.
Mat 5:25 `Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him, that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and to prison thou mayest be cast, Mat 5:26 verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.
Mat 5:27 `Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not commit adultery;
Mat 5:28 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 `But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
Mat 5:30 `And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

These passages, in context, is referring to the judgment of the Sanhedrim, which has authority to order a person thrown into the fires in the valley of Hinnom.

Charlie

This is only one passage.

 

[theseed]

The following passages indicate that some people will be tormented (Hell, Hades, or Lake of Fire).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209.43-48;%20Luke%2012.5;%20Luke%2016.23;%202%20Tim.%202.4;%202%20Peter%202.3-5;%20Rev.%2021.13-15;%20Ps.%209.17;%20Isa.%205.14;%20Mat.%2010.28;%20Mat.%2018.9;;&version=15;

 

[apenman]

John 14.6 is just one of many, many examples in John that claim Christ is the only way for salvation. In fact, it is a re-occuring theme.

So, tell me, how were Gentiles saved before the sacrifice of Christ??

 

[Charlie V]

This is only one passage.

This is one chapter with several verses containing "Gehenna."

What's your point? The word "Gehenna" still means "the valley of Hinnom."

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

The following passages indicate that some people will be tormented (Hell, Hades, or Lake of Fire).

Tormented? Yes. Happens all the time. Happens to this day.

People are being tormented in Iraq today, in ways not unlike the ways people were tormented in Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom, in Biblical times.

Charlie

 

[theseed]

Tormented? Yes. Happens all the time. Happens to this day.

People are being tormented in Iraq today, in ways not unlike the ways people were tormented in Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom, in Biblical times.

Charlie

Not quite, try again. There's no wiggle room at all for you in some of these verses. Especially, where the "worm dies no". The Rich Man had no way to leave his torment. Some people are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire, where they will burn forever.

Hardly anything compared to Iraq--where worms die.

 

[sculpturegirl]

So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Mark 10:18