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John 12:39-40

Discussion in 'Semper Reformanda' started by Hammster, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster He is risen! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I need some help here.

    39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
    40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." - John 12:39-40

    The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

    If the natural man cannot discern spiritual things, why would they need to be blinded?
     
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  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think Paul is pointing out that fact that people cannot believe when left to their own because of a judicial hardening that came over all as a result of the fall..
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster He is risen! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I agree. But why would Jesus say what He said?
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because they were reprobate never to be saved. While some are saved from among the others?
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster He is risen! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay, but if they were in the state that Paul describes, why would they need to be blinded and hardened? It seems to me that they were already in that state.
     
  6. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    I believe both instances are saying the same thing but in different ways. The flesh cannot understand the things of the spirit because it is blinded...... As oppose to the flesh becoming blind.......
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are all blinded at birth, and from out of this condition God saves the elect. But he also places a special judicial hardening on the entire group from which no elect are to be found.
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster He is risen! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Can you think of any reason why? The way it reads makes it look like there’s a possibility that they could see and believe.
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think those he mentions as being hardened were a particular group of reprobate without any elect among them. Whereas we all come from among the spiritually dead.
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster He is risen! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Maybe my confusion isn’t clear. :)

    Why blind someone who is already blind?
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think it's saying none will be saved from this group as opposed to saying some will be saved from the other group. Perhaps a way to reconcile Supralapsarianism with Infralapsarianism.
     
  12. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I dont know if it helps. Here an illinformed view!
    But the backstory of Isaiah 44:18 which is what is referred is interesting.
    It refers to a people who had turned to idols made of wood. It does not contain the last part
    "and turn and I would heal them" So the last part is a comment or consequence of Isaiah, it is not the content of it.

    It is also true that punctuation is unreliable, as is verse and book numbers , some were added later.

    Imagine then the first part is a reference to those who have turned away : now alter the punctuation slightly ,so it would quote isaiah 44:18 as those who had turned away and then follow with.
    "turn and I would heal them".
    Which is logical, if turn meant turn away from idols back to the Lord
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Are you questioning what we would consider the “foregone conclusion?”
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster He is risen! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It came up in a debate with a synergist last year. I quoted John 12, and they asked if man was depraved by nature, why would Jesus need to blind them? I don’t remember what I said, but I wasn’t satisfied with the answer, and I’ve had trouble finding one.
     
  15. afishamongmany

    afishamongmany Oldbie Supporter

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    Hi Hammster - No, your confusion is clear enough (if clear confusion is possible :)).
    Firstly, John 12:39,40 is John quoting Isaiah 6. They are not the words of Jesus.
    Secondly, the Isaiah 6 verses are different in Isaiah 6 KJV - Isaiah 6 Septuagint - John 12 KJV. The differences are significant.
    Thirdly, in John 12:40, Who is the he at the beginning? Who is the I at the end?
    Fourthly, Does it really read as, blinding someone who is already blind rather than, the are blind because they have been blinded?
    Hope something there will help. If I've added to your confusion I'm sorry :)
    He will guide us into all truth.
    ><>
     
  16. Hammster

    Hammster He is risen! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Thanks for clearing up that it wasn’t Jesus who said it.

    Other than that, no, it didn’t help. :)
     
  17. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    The unregenerate rejects the Spirit's gifts. Theirs' hostility. They want nothing to do with them. For folly they are to them, and they can't perceive them, for a person's estimate of them must proceed from the spiritual side. So where there isn't spirituality's spark, where the Spirit hasn't worked regeneration, there every human's judgment will insist upon the Gospel's senselessness.

    The Gospel appears on trial before the natural people. The jury's incompetent. The natural person receives not the Spirit's things, that is, they're not capable of spiritual things. For they're foolishness unto them. Neither can they know them. Much less will they believe the Gospel.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster He is risen! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Then why would they need to be blinded? That’s the heart of my question.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Another possibility is God hardened them towards keeping the law and it has nothing to do with salvation. The establishment that would not allow her chicks to be gathered averting the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
     
  20. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yahushua ALWAYS SPOKE the Father's Word as the Father Directed Yahushua. Always.
     
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