John 10:28 and Preserverence of the Saints

[Bulldog]

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus clearly states that those whom he gives eternal life to can never perish. This is somehting impossible to get around from a non-Preserverence view point because it is an absolute statement. Jesus could not make any clearer that true Saints cannot be lost.



The phrase "neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand". The most common Arminan viewpoint says, "No man can pluck you out of the Father's hand, but you can always jump out". This interpretation is disproved by a couple of reasons.

First of all, in translations of the Bible "man is either italicized or appears in brackets because it does not appear in the original Greek. It is literally, "nothing or no one". "Nothing or no one" includes oneself.

The second problem comes in the very next verse.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

The one with salvation is included in "all". The Father is greater than him, he cannot become higher than the Father's will and simply "jump out".

 

[herev]

You are correct that this is said in John. Differences in theology are not based strictly on the Bible, but many on the harmony of scripture. For example: Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, while James asks the question of faith without works: Can such a faith save you?"
No one denies either part of the NT. It is how the two are harmonized that causes differences in Theology. One will say, well, James was saying that REAL faith produces works, while another will say, Paul was referring to the INITIAL act of faith, not to what happens later--fact is--we create the harmony so that our faith, our theology, and our doctrine makes sense--and that's ok. With the above quote, it becomes necessary to harmonize it with Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV):
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[2] to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So, the author of Hebrews tells us that it IS possible to believe and then fall away, seemingly to dispute what we are told explicitly in John 10:28. So, the question in the difference in belief of OSAS is how are these two verses (and others like them) harmonized?

 

[Bulldog]

I mean no offense herev, but I started this thread just to focus on the text on John 10:28, not jump to other verses.

If somone would like to disprove the Reformed understanding of the verse, I ask that they focus only on John 10.

 

[herev]

I mean no offense herev, but I started this thread just to focus on the text on John 10:28, not jump to other verses.

If somone would like to disprove the Reformed understanding of the verse, I ask that they focus only on John 10.

That's ok, I meant no offense either--please forgive the intrusion, my point was only that to look at one verse in a vacuum is difficult and unfruitful in my opinnion and I promise, I was not trying to "disprove" anything--merely trying to get the conversation going, so I leave it at that. Good luck with the thread!

 

[Ben johnson]

Jesus clearly states that those whom he gives eternal life to can never perish. This is somehting impossible to get around from a non-Preserverence view point because it is an absolute statement. Jesus could not make any clearer that true Saints cannot be lost.

But it's all based on the man's belief, isn't it?

The phrase "neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand". The most common Arminan viewpoint says, "No man can pluck you out of the Father's hand, but you can always jump out". This interpretation is disproved by a couple of reasons.

First of all, in translations of the Bible "man is either italicized or appears in brackets because it does not appear in the original Greek. It is literally, "nothing or no one". "Nothing or no one" includes oneself.

The second problem comes in the very next verse.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

The one with salvation is included in "all". The Father is greater than him, he cannot become higher than the Father's will and simply "jump out".

The key, is the word "HARPAZO" --- it means FORCE. This does not preclude "unbelief" --- which is NOT forcing, it is DECEIVING.

to look at one verse in a vacuum is difficult and unfruitful in my opinion

Indeed; I so want to comment on John10:9 and the word "Tis-ANY"; but, I shall (Ben places back of hand on forehead), refrain.

 

[Bulldog]

But it's all based on the man's belief, isn't it?

So you are saying the meaning of the verses is, 'they shall never perish, as long as they continue in faith"???

The key, is the word "HARPAZO" --- it means FORCE. This does not preclude "unbelief" --- which is NOT forcing, it is DECEIVING.

Harpazo also means to "snatch away" or "catch", which all translations translate it as.

Also, Ben, "nothing or no one". Would the believing individual be included in "nothing or no one"?

 

[Ben johnson]

So you are saying the meaning of the verses is, 'they shall never perish, as long as they continue in faith"???

Actually, yes. But here again "one verse cannot operate in a vacuum" --- if you will allow other verses, that "Scripture interprets Scripture", I could show you the conditional asserted in Col1:23, the univeralness of available-salvation conditined ON belief in 1Tim4:10, etcetera.

It is not so much that it means "they shall never perish as LONT as they CONTINUE in faith", but rather "My sheep HAVE eternal life" --- and the context does include verse 9, which asserts "they BECOME His sheep BY BELIEVING." Thus, contextually speaking, it very much does convey, "I give eternal life to BELIEVERS."

Harpazo also means to "snatch away" or "catch", which all translations translate it as.

Also, Ben, "nothing or no one". Would the believing individual be included in "nothing or no one"?

I don't see how "FORCED" can be denied in this verse. From Strong's Lexicon:
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away

All three meanings (of which "snatch" is the LEAST presented) convey "firce".

And "force" is not "freely walk away by unbelief".

 

[Ainesis]

That's ok, I meant no offense either--please forgive the intrusion, my point was only that to look at one verse in a vacuum is difficult and unfruitful in my opinnion and I promise, I was not trying to "disprove" anything--merely trying to get the conversation going, so I leave it at that. Good luck with the thread!

You are absolutely right here Tommy. It is foolishness to look at one verse in a vaccum and then determine that no other Scriptures should enter the discussion.

If that is the case, then I would like to offer John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

This clearly says that Jesus gave up the ghost. Therefore, Jesus is dead. Now, I want someone to prove to me that Jesus is not dead, but you can use no other verse other than John 19:30.

All John 10:28 says is that Jesus will give "them" eternal life, but the question is, Who are 'they'? That can only be determined by studying the other Scriptures, both in that Chapter and others.

 

[BBAS 64]

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus clearly states that those whom he gives eternal life to can never perish. This is somehting impossible to get around from a non-Preserverence view point because it is an absolute statement. Jesus could not make any clearer that true Saints cannot be lost.



The phrase "neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand". The most common Arminan viewpoint says, "No man can pluck you out of the Father's hand, but you can always jump out". This interpretation is disproved by a couple of reasons.

First of all, in translations of the Bible "man is either italicized or appears in brackets because it does not appear in the original Greek. It is literally, "nothing or no one". "Nothing or no one" includes oneself.

The second problem comes in the very next verse.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

The one with salvation is included in "all". The Father is greater than him, he cannot become higher than the Father's will and simply "jump out".

Ainesis

You are absolutely right here Tommy. It is foolishness to look at one verse in a vaccum and then determine that no other Scriptures should enter the discussion.

If that is the case, then I would like to offer John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

This clearly says that Jesus gave up the ghost. Therefore, Jesus is dead. Now, I want someone to prove to me that Jesus is not dead, but you can use no other verse other than John 19:30.

All John 10:28 says is that Jesus will give "them" eternal life, but the question is, Who are 'they'? That can only be determined by studying the other Scriptures, both in that Chapter and others.

Good Day, Ainesis

Do you really feel it is revelant to the question that Bulldog asked in the OP to determine who the "them" are? The term "them" is derived from the context of the passage it's self and seeing it is a pronoun the "them" would be identified in previuos veses that make up the passage as a complete idea.

Though the term "them" may appear in other books and chapters does not mean that they are related in context or identifing who "them" a pronoun refers to in Jn 10:28.

Seeing Bulldog has asked that the verse be delt with as it refers to them and the not pershing of them and how that is acheived by the Father, because of his greatness in comparision to all.

YLT

Joh 10:28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish--to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father;


Do you agree with his observation?

Peace to you,

Bill

 

[Ainesis]

Good Day, Ainesis

Do you really feel it is revelant to the question that Bulldog asked in the OP to determine who the "them" are? The term "them" is derived from the context of the passage it's self and seeing it is a pronoun the "them" would be identified in previuos veses that make up the passage as a complete idea.

Hi Bill,

That is rather my point. The term "them" is derived from the context of what is discussed in the previous verses. Therefore, we must of course consider more than that verse itself in understanding what God is saying. Further, I also believe that Scripture often reveals Scripture, so that we can examine themes in God's words that relate to each other.

I have no problem with the fact that Bulldog may want to discuss a specific text. I just find it interesting that he would not be open to looking at other text as well if it perhaps helps to enlighten this specific verse.

Seeing Bulldog has asked that the verse be delt with as it refers to them and the not pershing of them and how that is acheived by the Father, because of his greatness in comparision to all.

YLT

Joh 10:28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish--to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father;


Do you agree with his observation?

Peace to you,

Bill

I am sorry, but I think you lost me. Which observation are you referring to?

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,

That is rather my point. The term "them" is derived from the context of what is discussed in the previous verses. Therefore, we must of course consider more than that verse itself in understanding what God is saying. Further, I also believe that Scripture often reveals Scripture, so that we can examine themes in God's words that relate to each other.

I have no problem with the fact that Bulldog may want to discuss a specific text. I just find it interesting that he would not be open to looking at other text as well if it perhaps helps to enlighten this specific verse.?

Good Day, Ainesis

I am not going to assume Bulldogs feelings of this method of understanding and looking to other verses as part of a normal course of interpruting passages in Scripture.

As I read this verse in context IMHO it is complete and fully understandable. I find that this is one of thoses passages that is very clear and is used more to understand verses or passages that seem less clear as seen in the Christian historical standards of biblical studies.

We use the clear text to understand those that are less clear.

am sorry, but I think you lost me. Which observation are you referring to?

Bulldog's

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Azaka]

John 10
27My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.


From my study of this passage, I've learned that the verbs "listen to," "follow," and "give" in verses 27 and 28 are all in the present indicative. Generally, the present indicative denotes progressive action. It could therefore be translated, "My sheep are listening to My voice, and I know them, and they are following me. And I am giving them everlasting life..." In other words, it was going on at that very moment - it wasn't just something that happened in the past. It was action in progress. Jesus' sheep are those who are presently listening to his voice and presently following him. And they are presently receiving everlasting life from him. That is what it means to be one of his sheep. It means to believe on him and continue believing on him. It means to abide in him and continue abiding in him. If we aren't doing that, then we aren't his sheep and this promise does not apply to us.

Furthermore, these verses do not offer us a guarantee against ourselves, but only against enemies from without who would seek to carry off Christ's sheep. And it is only those who are faithfully listening to his voice and following him (abiding in him) that are protected from outside enemies and are receiving everlasting life. Those who aren't faithfully listening to his voice and following him (abiding in him) aren't his sheep. The only guarantee they have is to be cast out, thrown into the fire and burned.

In Christ,
Azaka

 

[Ainesis]

Good Day, Ainesis

I am not going to assume Bulldogs feelings of this method of understanding and looking to other verses as part of a normal course of interpruting passages in Scripture.

Fair enough.

As I read this verse in context IMHO it is complete and fully understandable.

I would agree, provided we understand who "they" are.

Bulldog's

I would have to say no because Bulldog's observations about the verse go farther than the verse itself.

The receipt of eternal life is repeatedly connected with the belief of the one in salvation.

 

[Commoner]

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus clearly states that those whom he gives eternal life to can never perish. This is somehting impossible to get around from a non-Preserverence view point because it is an absolute statement. Jesus could not make any clearer that true Saints cannot be lost.



The phrase "neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand". The most common Arminan viewpoint says, "No man can pluck you out of the Father's hand, but you can always jump out". This interpretation is disproved by a couple of reasons.

First of all, in translations of the Bible "man is either italicized or appears in brackets because it does not appear in the original Greek. It is literally, "nothing or no one". "Nothing or no one" includes oneself.

The second problem comes in the very next verse.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

The one with salvation is included in "all". The Father is greater than him, he cannot become higher than the Father's will and simply "jump out".

Seems you have concluded that you became immortal. Were you immortal before you became immortal? Or were you a mortal? What does eternal life mean? Or have you distorted its meaning for the sake of your traditions?

In the NT our eternal life is not even a condition. Eternal life is Christ himself. Not you nor some abstract condition.

There is a reason Paul instructs Christians to test themselves to see if Christ is in them. Judgment day is where all will be decided, not Calvin's Geneva.

Commoner