I gave you an answer, you dismissed it outright and bashed it. I've seen it many times before.My default position is that I don't understand God.
I never once bashed God or anyone who loves him (which would include myself).
I am merely asking questions that you don't seem to have an answer to.
And that's totally fine... just means we are in the same boat.
Very good point! Death seems like a cruel and painful thing to us. But only God sees the whole story. Perhaps from His perspective it isn't actually as bad as we feel it is.I have no idea. There are certain things that we simply aren't going to know in this life. If I was God, I would have nuked Satan about a day after he rebelled, evacuated all the dogs, birds, and dolphins to Mars, and knocked earth into the sun with a giant cosmic pool stick. Perhaps that's the point...I'm not, and it's a good thing.
Perhaps God sees the death of our earthly bodies from a different perspective than we do.
I gave you an answer, you dismissed it outright and bashed it. I've seen it many times before.
Very good point! Death seems like a cruel and painful thing to us. But only God sees the whole story. Perhaps from His perspective it isn't actually as bad as we feel it is.
Don't take that as my support for death, however!!
Offense is overused. I'm not offended. Disrespectful would be a better word. I did take time to make a reasonably detailed response in an attempt to give a perspective not often considered which DOES provide insight into the story and your response was dripping with sarcasm... and not the good natured kind:You seem offended. I apologize as that is not my intention... however... You took two verses and added many assumptions taken to very far lengths and came to a conclusion that has nothing to do with the rest of the story... or anything I was asking... I'm sorry that I fail to see how that counts as an answer, or even what you are answering.
that justifies slaughtering all of the kids. And all of his servants. And all of the animals. Got it. Thanks for clearing that one up.
because they were enjoying themselves, and **MAY** have been sinning
This strongly implies that you have already made up your mind and have little interest in considering explainations, but instead apparently, criticizing them.Or. We could just admit the story is screwed up and we have no clue why all of those lives needed to be taken.
The more I read the Bible, the more confused I get.
Sometimes, a messenger's job is just to deliver a parcel without questioning its contents.
I think you're seeing exactly what you're supposed to see and what I have seen since early on (12 yrs. old) in my walk (I'll be 74 soon).The more I read the Bible, the more confused I get........................The most obvious question is... why does God allow Satan to do these things? I mean, it opens with God bragging to Satan about Job, Satan makes a bet, and God bites. Why? It feels like Job (and thus, humanity in general?) is just a toy. Two spiritual entities gambling with his life to prove the other wrong... it seems cruel.................................I also don't understand how others don't see what I am seeing here. Or perhaps why they won't admit to seeing it.
But you're missing what Elihu says to Job - the younger one who was afraid to speak up at first. He does say more than "He's God so you can't argue" or "You're not as good as you think you are" or "Curse God and get it over with".
Elihu makes some interesting points that the others don't:
1. God knows the whole history of our lives even before it happens, so He may allow a person's life to be cut short before some wickedness can be done. In this regard, we could consider the fate of Job's children. We really don't know much about them, after all...
2. God is merciful and just and does not despise anyone He has made
3. Rather than being angry at God in times of trouble, we should cry for help. Though Job never curses God, he certainly questions God and never really asks for God's help that I recall...
4. "And He will not do violence to justice and abundant righteousness." Ultimately, God does recognize the righteous and just works of people who worship Him. If bad things happen, we need to trust that there is a reason we don't see. God will never pay back righteousness with suffering, but that doesn't mean suffering won't happen for other reasons.
5. We fool ourselves if we think we actually understand God. God does not fit into any box we could ever create and we need to acknowledge that with a certain degree of fear and respect.
But you're missing what Elihu says to Job - the younger one who was afraid to speak up at first. He does say more than "He's God so you can't argue" or "You're not as good as you think you are" or "Curse God and get it over with".
Elihu makes some interesting points that the others don't:
1. God knows the whole history of our lives even before it happens, so He may allow a person's life to be cut short before some wickedness can be done. In this regard, we could consider the fate of Job's children. We really don't know much about them, after all...
2. God is merciful and just and does not despise anyone He has made
3. Rather than being angry at God in times of trouble, we should cry for help. Though Job never curses God, he certainly questions God and never really asks for God's help that I recall...
4. "And He will not do violence to justice and abundant righteousness." Ultimately, God does recognize the righteous and just works of people who worship Him. If bad things happen, we need to trust that there is a reason we don't see. God will never pay back righteousness with suffering, but that doesn't mean suffering won't happen for other reasons.
5. We fool ourselves if we think we actually understand God. God does not fit into any box we could ever create and we need to acknowledge that with a certain degree of fear and respect.
I have some comments on your response:
1. That statement is not even Biblical. Where did you find that He just kills people to keep them from something bad? No where. And additionally, I will repeat that statement in different words: God is so good He will just kill you. And look at a hurt world with much suffering. Why doesn't that logic apply there? If you look at Acts 10:38 "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him"
Before I continue I just wanted you to know that I'm not mad haha. Typing doesn't do much justice to a person's voice.
Anyways!
God's solution to bad things happening is Himself. He comes in and saves people, frees them from bondage and oppression.
2. I like it.
3. That's true, Job never cursed God. But Job did curse himself in Job 3:1
4. I agree with most of this statement, but the "there is a reason we don't see" is also not backed by the Bible. Maybe you're thinking of Romans 8:28 verse.
If we take a step back and look at the previous verses, we can start from 26 (However I do recommend reading more than just a few):
"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
The highlighted areas are important: The previous verses are talking about PRAYER.
If we look at the conjunction And, we can see that the statement preceding it and after it are connected.
In other words, when we pray, God intercedes our prayers and starts making situations (the bad and even worse) work out for our good. This is a promise only for the believers tho!
As it says "... for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
Not everybody loves God. This is something only believers have the amazing promise of.
5. Not biblical. In the old testament, YES. But in the New Testament, Not quite. I'm not saying we know EVERYTHING about God, that's impossible in this life.
However, your statement is not biblical for the New Testament believer as it says:
1 Corinthians 2:16 states: "or, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."
We HAVE the mind of Christ. It almost sounds like heresy to say that in church unfortunately.
Again, I'm not saying we "know EVERYTHING", but we do have God's mind and we have seen in Jesus that God and Satan are different, and that Satan comes to STEAL, KILL, and DESTROY, John 10:10.
My main point is: We won't understand everything about God, but we have the mind of God, and we have the Bible, and Jesus' example and His words. He said that anything that is bad = Satan.
This is a doctrine that has many people confused.
I guess my problem is, I can't stop asking questions.
I expect to find truth in the Bible. Because that's what everyone preaches. However, feel good messages and ear tickling aside, whenever I read the Bible for myself all I find is more questions.
When I present these questions to other Christians, I am told not to ask questions and just blindly believe what everyone else believes. At least the parts they can agree on, anyway.
Instead of finding truth it's speculation, assumptions, and stop wasting your (read : our) time because you could never understand it.
Seems more like you find your own truth and that's good enough until next Sunday.
It's very discouraging.
I have been reading the Book of Job for a few weeks, trying to wrap my head around a few things. I asked christian friends, christian strangers, even a church leader, and always receive the same, uninspired answers.
The most obvious question is... why does God allow Satan to do these things? I mean, it opens with God bragging to Satan about Job, Satan makes a bet, and God bites.
Why? It feels like Job (and thus, humanity in general?) is just a toy. Two spiritual entities gambling with his life to prove the other wrong... it seems cruel.
Everyone keeps saying the story of Job is essentially to teach you to praise God even when nothing is going for you... but in Job's case, everything fell apart because God allowed it!
But, to me, beyond all that... the thing that gets me most is his children being massacred by a twister knocking their home on them.
Why does nobody mention the children?
Why did their lives not matter in this cruel game?
All God really had to say about it is "I made everything, so you can't question what I do"
The more I read the Bible, the more confused I get.
I have been reading the Book of Job for a few weeks, trying to wrap my head around a few things. I asked christian friends, christian strangers, even a church leader, and always receive the same, uninspired answers.
The most obvious question is... why does God allow Satan to do these things? I mean, it opens with God bragging to Satan about Job, Satan makes a bet, and God bites.
Why? It feels like Job (and thus, humanity in general?) is just a toy. Two spiritual entities gambling with his life to prove the other wrong... it seems cruel.
Everyone keeps saying the story of Job is essentially to teach you to praise God even when nothing is going for you... but in Job's case, everything fell apart because God allowed it!
But, to me, beyond all that... the thing that gets me most is his children being massacred by a twister knocking their home on them.
Why does nobody mention the children?
Why did their lives not matter in this cruel game?
All God really had to say about it is "I made everything, so you can't question what I do"
The more I read the Bible, the more confused I get.
First.all scripture must be read with one asking GOD for understanding...not men.I have been reading the Book of Job for a few weeks, trying to wrap my head around a few things. I asked christian friends, christian strangers, even a church leader, and always receive the same, uninspired answers.
The most obvious question is... why does God allow Satan to do these things? I mean, it opens with God bragging to Satan about Job, Satan makes a bet, and God bites.
Why? It feels like Job (and thus, humanity in general?) is just a toy. Two spiritual entities gambling with his life to prove the other wrong... it seems cruel.
Everyone keeps saying the story of Job is essentially to teach you to praise God even when nothing is going for you... but in Job's case, everything fell apart because God allowed it!
But, to me, beyond all that... the thing that gets me most is his children being massacred by a twister knocking their home on them.
Why does nobody mention the children?
Why did their lives not matter in this cruel game?
All God really had to say about it is "I made everything, so you can't question what I do"
The more I read the Bible, the more confused I get.
To me, the Bible is always a test of faith. It's good to have questions. And I find that more I can stay closer to God, the more I can get to the answers. I think that I have more answers this way than other Christians on average.
Do you attend any church? I think that the key lies in how close you are with God and other Christians. Will pray for you.
Moreover, sometimes we may have to accept that an answer is not available to us temporarily, even science has a lot of unanswerable questions. We will slowly discover those answers one by one.
God Bless.
I have gotten fed up with uninspired answers as well.
This book used to throw me everywhere. It seemed to be such a contradiction to the character of God.
However, I will go down your message and give you answers.
1. God did boast about Job, HOWEVER, He did not bring him up to set him up for testing as many people think.
It says in Job 1:8 "And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'" - Ylt
Most people read the other versions that read: "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
When you read this, as an English speaker we tend to think "Oh! God was mentioning Job to Satan for a 'purpose'" or something weird like that.
But looking at a literal translation, we see God was just simply pointing out that Satan had his heart against Job. AND looking at the verse from this perspective, do you see how the non-literal translation could be read both ways? (Nothing wrong with non literal translation)
Satan never in the end "makes a bet" with God, he just states that Job is only in the relationship for what he can get out of it. Then satan goes on to say that if God just destroys what Job has, Job will curse Him.
Now, when God says “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
people think that this means that this is where God "allowed" satan to attack Job.
However, this is not true in the sense that it is interpreted. (I'll explain below)
Before we move on there are a few things to consider while reading this book:
1. Job was "bragged" about by God, but so were many other people like David for example.
Just because God "bragged" on them doesn't mean they were sinless. Remember that.
2. There was no covenant between God and Job as Job was before the Old Covenant and there was nothing covenant wise to empower Job to come against the enemy or "protect" him from the attacks of the enemy.
3. 2 Corinthians 4:4 - "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. ..." I bet you might have never seen this verse. But we find out that Satan actually is the "god" (Small g) of this world. (Quick note: This happened when Adam and Eve fell. They gave their God given authority to the enemy)
Satan is also referred to as the "Prince and power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2.
Keep those in mind.
Back on track:
When God said "...Behold, all that he has is in your power,..." The meaning of this statement can be understood by the verses made in point 3. And just for note: The word "Behold" means simply: Look.
This may sound like "Look Satan, what he has is in your power" in our modern day language.
Next point: "Protection from attacks" is not necessarily something we new testament believers have either. But we do have the power and authority of Jesus to come against the enemy and "destroy" the works of the evil one. (There are many references on this but one good one, just to keep things short, is Mark 16).
So in a sense we do have protection? I don't know how to word this, but anyways, there was nothing to stop satan from attacking, but there was that part where God said "...only do not lay a hand on his person." This is the interesting part.
Some other translations say something like: "but don't hurt Job", "don't lay a hand on him" etc.
(Look up Biblehub for this verse "Job 1-12", and you can see many translations back to back.)
The funny thing is.... Satan strikes Job with Boils in Job 2:7, right after satan appeared before God for a second time and had a very similar conversation.
In other words... Satan was told to not strike job in chapter 1, but in chapter 2, he strikes Job. The perfect example of someone being disobedient to God.
Now why didn't satan kill Job? Remember the whole point satan was trying to prove... He was trying to prove that if Job lost everything, he would curse God. Satan didn't have any interest in killing him.
Now I'm also not trying to say that God didn't have anything to do with protecting Job at all or something, but this is something to consider. (I'm still learning too)
Closing remarks:
God is good, Satan is not.
Some awesome verses to help you with general things (Please read until end too. There are more answers to some questions not addressed in your post):
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance."
-God doesn't want people to go to hell. (The doctrine that he just randomly picks who He wants or something like that is not even backed by scripture)
And just in-case someone mentions Romans 8:29:
The verse says: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;" NASB
Let me explain what this means:
God knows EVERYTHING, and He knew who would receive the Gospel and become His children/followers. And God predestined His followers to become like Jesus.
The predestination mentioned is His people conforming to the image of His Son.
This verse is highly misunderstood. And people make weird doctrine out of it.
I like another translation of this verse as well: "For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" NLT
Now what about Romans? Doesn't God say all things happen because they are for our good?
No. That is not what it says.
Lets look at Romans 8:26-28 to understand what is being said:
"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
The key to understand Romans 8:28 is the preceding verses. It's talking about prayer.
Since my response is very long I'll keep it short:
When we pray, God intercedes our prayers through His Spirit and makes whatever event that is happening, or the effects of what has happened (bad or really bad) start to change course and turn around to become something good.
Note: This does not mean He WANTED it to happen.
Also: This promise is only for believers.
As it says in the verse: "for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
Not everybody loves God.
And just look at non-believers who get killed for drinking and driving, etc. They ended up in hell. It did not work together for their good. (This is just an example).
As we can tell from the verse previously mentioned, 2 Peter 3:9, His will for people does not always happen.
There are more verses that prove God is not "In control" of everything that happens.
Some of them are:
Acts: 10:38 says "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him."
John 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."
My point is... If God "ordained" these people to be inflicted by satan, then why is Jesus going around freeing people from him?
Jesus said in Mark 3:25 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand."
So... If God was doing/allowing the bad things, then Jesus would be going against the Father, and that would be a divided house. (Granted the verse was Jesus' response to the pharisee's accusing Him of casting out demons with demons. But that doesn't change the applicability of the statement)
And why did Jesus say satan comes to do all these bad things? Why didn't He say it was God who does them/allows them?
The answer is because Jesus is the exact image of God, and God's will for humanity is what we see in Jesus... He has love towards humanity. Thats why it says He so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life in John 3:16.
I hope you the best.
Don't ever be discouraged.
My rule is: What did Jesus say/do?
Jesus is the perfect example...
If there is something old testament/new testament that is troubling us, does our "theological view" match that of Jesus?
If not.... Throw it away!
First.all scripture must be read with one asking GOD for understanding...not men.
One of the aspects that confuses people is the way the english has worded the start of Job .
The english makes it look like God is setting Job up. Like he drew the devils attention to Job .
But in english, iv heard it taught ..the essence of that conversation is misconstrued.
So in english God says have you considered my servant job..
But the tense is wrong..
God first asks where the enemy has arrived from . The defeated one says from wandering to and fro on the earth....
Then God ,who already knows what the devil is up to, is pointing out what he already knows..
He says...."youve been considering my.servant job...".... I.e your here because your out to cause Jobs downfall but no.mattee what you try you are NOT going to win.( in essence God is letting the devil know that God knows what the devils up to) the devil had been trying unssucessfully to destroy job already... Long before this conversation.
We know this because the devil goes on to complain about the hedge of protection God has around Job....
How does the devil know about the hedge..? Because hes been trying to breach it for years and cannot.
God is then premempting every move he devils trying to make and then sets out to
#1 display that His (Gods) work in a persons heart unto righteousness is not superficial and reliant on protection
And #2 ..he sets out to increase Jobs righteousness.. A Very GOOD thing for Job!
God always works for our good turning even the devils intentions and efforts to the edification of those who are Gods own .
Thank you. I attend church occasionally, but have mostly been put off by the atmosphere.
There are of course, in all things related to humanity, a plethora of unanswered questions. I chose to make a thread off Job because, at first glance, this very popular story appears a few possible contradictions to common things I hear men say when standing in front of a crowd of church-goers.
God is love.
Well, why kill a bunch of children and servants to prove a point?
God wants everyone to be saved.
Well, why kill a bunch of children and servants who may not have been saved?
Satan is God's enemy.
Well, why talk to and make bets with him, and torture one of his most faithful followers just to prove him wrong?
Among a few others.
I was curious what other people like me thought about this... however, most people I ask sound like the man behind the pulpit... almost as if they had never, or perhaps were discouraged from asking these questions.
First, thank you so much for the time you put into this. It means the world to me. There is a lot I didn't know in what you said, and more that I need to look into further...
You mention a literal and nonliteral translations. This is the first I have heard of this and I am very curious what you mean. Why would there be both?
Would one not be more correct over the other?
Thank you.
I wish I could read the Bible in a language closer to its original. The telephone game has always made me skeptical if what I was reading was actually what it meant... or if King James edited that part a little too far.
I think I understand the point God was trying to make.
What gets me is the sacrifices to make it.
Thank you. I attend church occasionally, but have mostly been put off by the atmosphere.
There are of course, in all things related to humanity, a plethora of unanswered questions. I chose to make a thread off Job because, at first glance, this very popular story appears a few possible contradictions to common things I hear men say when standing in front of a crowd of church-goers.
God is love.
Well, why kill a bunch of children and servants to prove a point?
God wants everyone to be saved.
Well, why kill a bunch of children and servants who may not have been saved?
Satan is God's enemy.
Well, why talk to and make bets with him, and torture one of his most faithful followers just to prove him wrong?
Among a few others.
I was curious what other people like me thought about this... however, most people I ask sound like the man behind the pulpit... almost as if they had never, or perhaps were discouraged from asking these questions.
First, thank you so much for the time you put into this. It means the world to me. There is a lot I didn't know in what you said, and more that I need to look into further...
You mention a literal and nonliteral translations. This is the first I have heard of this and I am very curious what you mean. Why would there be both?
Would one not be more correct over the other?
Thank you.
I wish I could read the Bible in a language closer to its original. The telephone game has always made me skeptical if what I was reading was actually what it meant... or if King James edited that part a little too far.
I think I understand the point God was trying to make.
What gets me is the sacrifices to make it.
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