Jews/Messianics relationship to the Torah

[anisavta]

LOL! This really derails the thread. It's a question of authority. The Torah states the dairy/meat prohibition three time, hence it was taken very seriously by our Sages(in position of authority) and that's the end of the story for us.

But isn't it a matter of interpretation and fences? The command states we are not to boil a kid in its mother's milk - kid referring to a baby goat. But our sages wanted to make sure no one would violate the law and created a fence - no animal, be it goat or cow or even chicken (?). Then another sage added a new fence - keep dishes separated so meat does not even come close to contact with dairy... and the fences kept developing until you have what it is now. Same goes for Shabbat from the work involved to kindling a fire to flipping a switch to turn on a light or pushing an elevator button.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Yes, but from what I have seen most of those involved in the movement are not Jewish, and those that are do not come from observant backgrounds.
As to whether they are styling themselves as a part of Judaism is up to
debate

Derail away, I enjoy threads that branch out into other areas.

There are Jews of all sorts coming from non observant backgrounds, semi observant and observant. Does it make difference.

 

[mishkan]

Hi David its been awhile since I have been here but thought I would ask why you think anyone needs to adhere to 'good ole Constantinian-style christianity'? To me in my little head I hear, christmas, easter and all those things, perhaps its because of all the people coming out of the 'constantine-style' churches and leaving those type of trappings behind. Couldnt agree more that we need to learn how to bring one another together, teach and serve the King, and learn to live by Torah! Its probably just me but the idea we need to get to a Constantinian style christianity is well not something I would have ever suggested.

shalom,
Mizz

Good to see you!

Ummm... I think you misunderstood me. But that's probably my fault. Upon re-reading my own words, I see that I used the phrase, "A valid MJ must not only teach Jews how to be good Constantinian-style Christians...". That's a bit ambiguous.

What I meant was that a valid MJ must do more than teach Jews... etc.

Thanks for pointing that out. i'd hate to confuse people about what I really meant to communicate.

 

[ChavaK]

There are Jews of all sorts coming from non observant backgrounds, semi observant and observant. Does it make difference.

I think so....my impression from forums and the one Messianic Jew I met is that the more observant the Jew, the less likely they are to be come Messianic or a member of any other faith.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I think so....my impression from forums and the one Messianic Jew I met is that the more observant the Jew, the less likely they are to be come Messianic or a member of any other faith.

Why do you get that impression?

 

[jcpro]

But isn't it a matter of interpretation and fences? The command states we are not to boil a kid in its mother's milk - kid referring to a baby goat. But our sages wanted to make sure no one would violate the law and created a fence - no animal, be it goat or cow or even chicken (?). Then another sage added a new fence - keep dishes separated so meat does not even come close to contact with dairy... and the fences kept developing until you have what it is now. Same goes for Shabbat from the work involved to kindling a fire to flipping a switch to turn on a light or pushing an elevator button.

You're Jewish, right? What did G-d commanded us to do? To keep His commandments, to be in awe of Him at all times, to be righteous and holy. Remember the sin offering for the unintentional sin? That's what the fences are for. Not only from the corruption of the word of G-d, but to help us to rule over all transgressions-intentional and unintentional.

 

[ChavaK]

Why do you get that impression?

The only Messianic Jew I have met in person came from a secular background.
Of all the Jews who are Messianic I have "met" on line, not one came from a religous background. The only one who did come from an Orthodox background is Contra, and he isn't a Messianic.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The only Messianic Jew I have met in person came from a secular background.
Of all the Jews who are Messianic I have "met" on line, not one came from a religous background. The only one who did come from an Orthodox background is Contra, and he isn't a Messianic.

Ok so what are you trying to get across? It's nothing new under the sun even not in Messianic Judaism.

There's 3 main branches in Judaism right? Even most conservative Jews are not observant or as observant as orthodox. Nothing new under the sun right?

Let's say for argument sake a secular Jew never kept the Sabbath before. He becomes a believer and gets involved with a Messisnic Jewish synagogue who meets on the Sabbath. After he goes for a while the Torah cycle gets to Lev 11. Get it?

 

[mizzdy]

Good to see you!

Ummm... I think you misunderstood me. But that's probably my fault. Upon re-reading my own words, I see that I used the phrase, "A valid MJ must not only teach Jews how to be good Constantinian-style Christians...". That's a bit ambiguous.

What I meant was that a valid MJ must do more than teach Jews... etc.

Thanks for pointing that out. i'd hate to confuse people about what I really meant to communicate.

Whewy! lol Thanks for clearing that up. I get you know and really agree with you. Sometimes the net and understandings doesnt go hand in hand. So many are trying to teach past each other these days theres no learning going on, we do need to be able to find common grounds and build on that. Good to see you around also.

shalom,
Mizz

 

[xDenax]

Let's say for argument sake a secular Jew never kept the Sabbath before. He becomes a believer and gets involved with a Messisnic Jewish synagogue who meets on the Sabbath. After he goes for a while the Torah cycle gets to Lev 11. Get it?

I don't. What point are you making?

 

[anisavta]

You're Jewish, right? What did G-d commanded us to do? To keep His commandments, to be in awe of Him at all times, to be righteous and holy. Remember the sin offering for the unintentional sin? That's what the fences are for. Not only from the corruption of the word of G-d, but to help us to rule over all transgressions-intentional and unintentional.

Yes I am. And yes He did give us commandments for our own protection and good. But when does a fence create more work? If I follow the law to the furthest fence, I have to have two fridges, two sinks, at least three complete sets of kitchen items, buy everything from a kosher facility (which for some is hard because they don't live anywhere near one nor have the money to send out). I can't eat out anywhere unless it has been approved by a rabbi. All because I can't read the command that I'm not to boil a baby goat in it's mother's milk? Why does a sage have to regulate everything for me instead of me discerning for myself that HaShem does not want me to do such a horrendous thing as boiling a baby animal in its own mother's milk? And if I do fall - what provisions do I have for cleansing? If it is intentional, I'm doomed to death no matter what I do. And if not intentional, I don't have the Temple to bring a sacrifice. I have to wait until Yom Kippur and hope that HaShem accepts my plea for forgiveness? By waving a chicken over my head?
Why does it all have to be so complicated when G~d didn't mean it to be?

 

[jcpro]

Yes I am. And yes He did give us commandments for our own protection and good. But when does a fence create more work? If I follow the law to the furthest fence, I have to have two fridges, two sinks, at least three complete sets of kitchen items, buy everything from a kosher facility (which for some is hard because they don't live anywhere near one nor have the money to send out). I can't eat out anywhere unless it has been approved by a rabbi. All because I can't read the command that I'm not to boil a baby goat in it's mother's milk? Why does a sage have to regulate everything for me instead of me discerning for myself that HaShem does not want me to do such a horrendous thing as boiling a baby animal in its own mother's milk? And if I do fall - what provisions do I have for cleansing? If it is intentional, I'm doomed to death no matter what I do. And if not intentional, I don't have the Temple to bring a sacrifice. I have to wait until Yom Kippur and hope that HaShem accepts my plea for forgiveness? By waving a chicken over my head?
Why does it all have to be so complicated when G~d didn't mean it to be?

Yeah, rules of all kind are often inconvenient. And you don't have to follow them. And you don't need a sacrifice for sin nor will the sacrifice absolve you from intentional sin anyway- even if there was a Temple. Not without an act of repentance. And repentance should not wait for Yom Kippur for the same fence building Sages teach that it is always available. So does the Bible(Return to Me and I will return to you-remember?) And since it was Moses who put these guys in charge...
These are not secrets. Those things are there in plain sight in the Tanakh.

 

[xDenax]

Yes I am. And yes He did give us commandments for our own protection and good. But when does a fence create more work? If I follow the law to the furthest fence, I have to have two fridges, two sinks, at least three complete sets of kitchen items, buy everything from a kosher facility (which for some is hard because they don't live anywhere near one nor have the money to send out). I can't eat out anywhere unless it has been approved by a rabbi. All because I can't read the command that I'm not to boil a baby goat in it's mother's milk? Why does a sage have to regulate everything for me instead of me discerning for myself that HaShem does not want me to do such a horrendous thing as boiling a baby animal in its own mother's milk? And if I do fall - what provisions do I have for cleansing? If it is intentional, I'm doomed to death no matter what I do. And if not intentional, I don't have the Temple to bring a sacrifice. I have to wait until Yom Kippur and hope that HaShem accepts my plea for forgiveness? By waving a chicken over my head?
Why does it all have to be so complicated when G~d didn't mean it to be?

It's not as complicated and scary as you are making it out.

 

[ChavaK]

It's not as complicated and scary as you are making it out.

It's definitely not complicated.....if one hasn't been brought up observant, all it takes is a willingness to learn and a heart to follow that which G-d has commanded us.
Having said that, however, I don't think Messianics need to or should follow
the Oral Law.

 

[jcpro]

It's definitely not complicated.....if one hasn't been brought up observant, all it takes is a willingness to learn and a heart to follow that which G-d has commanded us.
Having said that, however, I don't think Messianics need to or should follow
the Oral Law.

I love the story of Jonah. We get distracted by the big fish and his cowardice, but my favourite part is "And G-d saw their actions that they repented from their evil way and G-d relented of the evil that He had said that He would do unto them" (Jonah 3:7-10). Simplicity itself. I agree. MJs should not follow the Oral Law, if it means cherry picking.

 

[ChavaK]

I love the story of Jonah. We get distracted by the big fish and his cowardice, but my favourite part is "And G-d saw their actions that they repented from their evil way and G-d relented of the evil that He had said that He would do unto them" (Jonah 3:7-10). Simplicity itself. I agree. MJs should not follow the Oral Law, if it means cherry picking.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I love the story of Jonah. We get distracted by the big fish and his cowardice, but my favourite part is "And G-d saw their actions that they repented from their evil way and G-d relented of the evil that He had said that He would do unto them" (Jonah 3:7-10). Simplicity itself. I agree. MJs should not follow the Oral Law, if it means cherry picking.

What about reform and conservative Jews?

 

[jcpro]

What about reform and conservative Jews?

what about them? I don't know what Reform believe, not really. Conservatives are not that different from Orthodox. Orthodox have many streams and levels of observance. Talmud teaches that we're all individuals with different perceptions and understandings. The moment G-d gave the Torah to the Jews, they, in a manner, received 600K Torahs for no person is the same. Is this not the case with everything?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

what about them? I don't know what Reform believe, not really. Conservatives are not that different from Orthodox. Orthodox have many streams and levels of observance. Talmud teaches that we're all individuals with different perceptions and understandings. The moment G-d gave the Torah to the Jews, they, in a manner, received 600K Torahs for no person is the same. Is this not the case with everything?

Well a lot of conservatives are not as observant as you think and some reform who are more observant than you think.

So if the Lubavitch understand this, levels of observance what's your point? Lubavitch don't judge, they accept you as you are a Jew right? And they don't judge you based on what level your at.

Why can't this be the case? What I'm not entitled so to speak to be at any level because I believe in Yeshua?

I mean let's get this out in the open instead of micky'ing around.

 

[ChavaK]

So if the Lubavitch understand this, levels of observance what's your point? Lubavitch don't judge, they accept you as you are a Jew right? And they don't judge you based on what level your at.

They don't judge you based on what level of observance you are at, but
I can guarantee you that they definitely do judge based on other criteria.
They just aren't public about it.

Why can't this be the case? What I'm not entitled so to speak to be at any level because I believe in Yeshua?

I'm not sure I understand the question?