Jews/Messianics relationship to the Torah

[ChavaK]

This post appeared in a different thread. I didn't want to side track that thread, so started a new one here.

Here is the post:

I don't see messianic Jews as adherents to Judaism, because our relationship to Torah is not the same as Judaism's relationship to Torah.

Do you agree with the statement that Messianics and Jews have a different relationship to the Torah? If so, what are those differences?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7644821-post60162352/#poststop

 

[mishkan]

This post appeared in a different thread. I didn't want to side track that thread, so started a new one here.

Here is the post:

Do you agree with the statement that Messianics and Jews have a different relationship to the Torah? If so, what are those differences?

My view is exactly the opposite. The first Messianics were nothing more, nor less, than Jews who expected the Jewish Messiah to re-establish the Israeli Kingdom right away. After a few decades, some began to catch a vision for expanding this Kingdom via the proclamation of a verbal message to the Gentile nations, rather than through military might. What was then spread was, in essence, a form of Judaism that emphasized the identity of the King.

A thorough reading of the Torah and the Prophets tells us that the reason Israel was removed from the Land is because they failed to keep Hashem's instructions, as revealed in the Torah. If MJ does not correct that deficiency, then we will never see the fulfillment of the Messianic expectation.

A valid MJ must not only teach Jews how to be good Constantinian-style Christians, but it must teach both Jews and Gentiles how to serve together in the Kingdom of Messiah, according to the ancient teachings of the Torah. We are claiming to establish the reign of the Israeli King on this planet. What credentials do we have that indicate we do so, other than observance of his commandments?

 

[etZion]

My view is exactly the opposite. The first Messianics were nothing more, nor less, than Jews who expected the Jewish Messiah to re-establish the Israeli Kingdom right away. After a few decades, some began to catch a vision for expanding this Kingdom via the proclamation of a verbal message to the Gentile nations, rather than through military might. What was then spread was, in essence, a form of Judaism that emphasized the identity of the King.

A thorough reading of the Torah and the Prophets tells us that the reason Israel was removed from the Land is because they failed to keep Hashem's instructions, as revealed in the Torah. If MJ does not correct that deficiency, then we will never see the fulfillment of the Messianic expectation.

A valid MJ must not only teach Jews how to be good Constantinian-style Christians, but it must teach both Jews and Gentiles how to serve together in the Kingdom of Messiah, according to the ancient teachings of the Torah. We are claiming to establish the reign of the Israeli King on this planet. What credentials do we have that indicate we do so, other than observance of his commandments?

Agreed with this guy.

 

[tzadik]

This post appeared in a different thread. I didn't want to side track that thread, so started a new one here.

Here is the post:

Do you agree with the statement that Messianics and Jews have a different relationship to the Torah? If so, what are those differences?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7644821-post60162352/#poststop

It would depend on what is defined as "Torah". Oral Torah or Written Torah.

 

[ChavaK]

It would depend on what is defined as "Torah". Oral Torah or Written Torah.

Since the statement was made by a Messianic, I would presume only
the written Torah.

 

[MessianicMommy]

Agreed with this guy.

me too!

 

[jcpro]

Since the statement was made by a Messianic, I would presume only
the written Torah.

Hold on a second. The MJ does not object to the dogmas put in place by the RCs and a pagan Emperor(both with Jewish blood on their hands), but it objects to rejects off hand the Oral Torah written by Jewish, G-d fearing Sages who had nothing but reverence for the written word of G-d?

 

[anisavta]

Hold on a second. The MJ does not object to the dogmas put in place by the RCs and a pagan Emperor(both with Jewish blood on their hands), but it objects to rejects off hand the Oral Torah written by Jewish, G-d fearing Sages who had nothing but reverence for the written word of G-d?

Care to explain with perhaps some documented proof?

 

[ChavaK]

Hold on a second. The MJ does not object to the dogmas put in place by the RCs and a pagan Emperor(both with Jewish blood on their hands), but it objects to rejects off hand the Oral Torah written by Jewish, G-d fearing Sages who had nothing but reverence for the written word of G-d?

from what I have learned here, Messianics do not consider the Oral Law to
be "scripture". They choose to follow portions of it if they find it meaningful,
but do not feel they are obligated to observe it.

 

[jcpro]

from what I have learned here, Messianics do not consider the Oral Law to
be "scripture". They choose to follow portions of it if they find it meaningful,
but do not feel they are obligated to observe it.

but it's a sum of our Jewish learning, is it not? How can anyone styling themselves as a part of Judaism reject such valuable well of information? Anyway, I'm just curious. I don't want to derail your thread, so I'll be quiet now

 

[anisavta]

from what I have learned here, Messianics do not consider the Oral Law to
be "scripture". They choose to follow portions of it if they find it meaningful,
but do not feel they are obligated to observe it.

 

[anisavta]

but it's a sum of our Jewish learning, is it not? How can anyone styling themselves as a part of Judaism reject such valuable well of information? Anyway, I'm just curious. I don't want to derail your thread, so I'll be quiet now

Jcpro we don't reject it. That would be creating a statement that is not true and that is exactly what causes misunderstanding. What Chava said is an accurate statement.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Jcpro we don't reject it. That would be creating a statement that is not true and that is exactly what causes misunderstanding. What Chava said is an accurate statement.

I would say what she said is true and also pertains to the Jews are are not believers.

 

[mishkan]

from what I have learned here, Messianics do not consider the Oral Law to be "scripture". They choose to follow portions of it if they find it meaningful, but do not feel they are obligated to observe it.

Yes, that's a pretty fair assessment.

But you and jcpro make it sound like it is only Messianics who do not adhere strictly to the oral traditions. Let's not forget that the vast majority of Jews are lucky to know what glatt kosher is, much less practice it.

I believe it may fairly be said that every Jewish person "chooses to follow portions of [the oral law] if they find it meaningful, but do not feel they are obligated to observe it."

 

[jcpro]

Yes, that's a pretty fair assessment.

But you and jcpro make it sound like it is only Messianics who do not adhere strictly to the oral traditions. Let's not forget that the vast majority of Jews are lucky to know what glatt kosher is, much less practice it.

I believe it may fairly be said that every Jewish person "chooses to follow portions of [the oral law] if they find it meaningful, but do not feel they are obligated to observe it."

However, there is a very important difference. When a Messianic eats a cheeseburger it's a matter of conscience. When a Jew eats one it's a matter of Law and sin-observant or not.

 

[mishkan]

However, there is a very important difference. When a Messianic eats a cheeseburger it's a matter of conscience. When a Jew eats one it's a matter of Law and sin-observant or not.

You believe it is a sin in the eyes of Hashem to eat a cheeseburger? Really?

Please expand on your distinction between conscience versus law. Is not conscience merely one's moral compass, reflecting the moral climate in which one was raised--how one defines law?

 

[mishkan]

I would say what she said is true and also pertains to the Jews are are not believers.

You and I were saying the same thing at the same time.

 

[mizzdy]

My view is exactly the opposite. The first Messianics were nothing more, nor less, than Jews who expected the Jewish Messiah to re-establish the Israeli Kingdom right away. After a few decades, some began to catch a vision for expanding this Kingdom via the proclamation of a verbal message to the Gentile nations, rather than through military might. What was then spread was, in essence, a form of Judaism that emphasized the identity of the King.

A thorough reading of the Torah and the Prophets tells us that the reason Israel was removed from the Land is because they failed to keep Hashem's instructions, as revealed in the Torah. If MJ does not correct that deficiency, then we will never see the fulfillment of the Messianic expectation.

A valid MJ must not only teach Jews how to be good Constantinian-style Christians, but it must teach both Jews and Gentiles how to serve together in the Kingdom of Messiah, according to the ancient teachings of the Torah. We are claiming to establish the reign of the Israeli King on this planet. What credentials do we have that indicate we do so, other than observance of his commandments?

Hi David its been awhile since I have been here but thought I would ask why you think anyone needs to adhere to 'good ole Constantinian-style christianity'? To me in my little head I hear, christmas, easter and all those things, perhaps its because of all the people coming out of the 'constantine-style' churches and leaving those type of trappings behind. Couldnt agree more that we need to learn how to bring one another together, teach and serve the King, and learn to live by Torah! Its probably just me but the idea we need to get to a Constantinian style christianity is well not something I would have ever suggested.

shalom,
Mizz

 

[ChavaK]

but it's a sum of our Jewish learning, is it not? How can anyone styling themselves as a part of Judaism reject such valuable well of information? Anyway, I'm just curious. I don't want to derail your thread, so I'll be quiet now

Yes, but from what I have seen most of those involved in the movement are not Jewish, and those that are do not come from observant backgrounds.
As to whether they are styling themselves as a part of Judaism is up to
debate

Derail away, I enjoy threads that branch out into other areas.

 

[jcpro]

You believe it is a sin in the eyes of Hashem to eat a cheeseburger? Really?

Please expand on your distinction between conscience versus law. Is not conscience merely one's moral compass, reflecting the moral climate in which one was raised--how one defines law?

LOL! This really derails the thread. It's a question of authority. The Torah states the dairy/meat prohibition three times, hence it was taken very seriously by our Sages(in position of authority) and that's the end of the story for us.
It's like driving on Shabbat or white tzitzit. Are they prohibited in the Torah? That's why we had/have judges to decide those things in the light and spirit of the Torah. That's their obligation and right. And we have an obligation to follow their rulings.