Jews don’t lie about the holocaust.

[EvangelicalChristian]

I think if I say anything else it will only get worse. I have said nothing to deserve such animosity, and yet on all sides I seem to have become a target, and regarded as denying the holocaust. I have never done such a thing, nor even implied such a thing.

If anything in particular is confusing, tell me and I can explain further. But I am at a loss to know how I can have been misunderstood, if anyone reads what I have actually said, and not what they think, assume or imagine I have said.

Personally, I think the best thing is for me to go away from this thread for a while and let the dust settle. It is far too heated and emotional at present, and some of the comments and assumptions made have not been a good witness to our faith.

I think that's fair. For the record I am not accusing you of anything I am simply confused, that is all. If you feel a little time away would be helpful then please have a rest and rejoin us when you are ready.

Be well

Tommy

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
This thread is about the holocaust.

Not so. This thread is about lying, denial and half truth.

Of which there is much in evidence.

This is hurtful, a rubbing salt on wounds of survivors, or anyone effected by the holocaust...and smiling about it, using a smile one of these --->

as you point out that there is much evidence in reference to lying, denial, and half-truths

 

[keith99]

I think if I say anything else it will only get worse. I have said nothing to deserve such animosity, and yet on all sides I seem to have become a target, and regarded as denying the holocaust. I have never done such a thing, nor even implied such a thing.

If anything in particular is confusing, tell me and I can explain further. But I am at a loss to know how I can have been misunderstood, if anyone reads what I have actually said, and not what they think, assume or imagine I have said.

Personally, I think the best thing is for me to go away from this thread for a while and let the dust settle. It is far too heated and emotional at present, and some of the comments and assumptions made have not been a good witness to our faith.

Much of the issue seems to be based on minor points in what you wrote and an all too common thing I see online.

Your 'errors' first. It would have been better to say only God FULLY knows the extent of the holocaust. Also the technical definition of genocide is targeted at a group, usually ethnic, but now it seems extended to faiths also. So much of the Russian and Chineese slaughter would be excluded from that term. Really not big deals. (well unless you had a history of being a term prig, then I would call you on either of these in a nasty manner.

Not for the internet trend. People paint so much with a broad brush. Disagree with a post on one point and people read it as disagreeing with every single point. You disagreed on some specific points and it seems your posts got read as disagreeing entirely and in absurd ways.

You said Jews are like the rest of us and some do lie. Yuo explicitly said most do not. Some read this as saying that in mass Jews are lying about the holocaust. Neither said or implied that.

You disagreed with this being a unique event. People read that as denying the event. Hardly. And you stuck to only the well known recent ones. No Pol Pot, Armenia or Carthage. But you disagreed and thus you must be on what they think of as 'the other side'.

But rejoice. I am now the target. I'll have to see about getting up the avatar I use elsewhere and really drawing some fire.

 

[keith99]

Avatar accomplished. Let the fun begin.

 

[brinny]

Avatar accomplished. Let the fun begin.

ROFL!! what is it that is s'posed to be upsetting about your avatar?

 

[keith99]

ROFL!! what is it that is s'posed to be upsetting about your avatar?

It depends on if someone sees the man or if they only see the uniform.

Should I replace it with what is probably the last picture taken of him? I'm sure that one will draw fire. (That one is not a portrait and includes one much better known and less liked person).

 

[brinny]

It depends on if someone sees the man or if they only see the uniform.

Should I replace it with what is probably the last picture taken of him? I'm sure that one will draw fire. (That one is not a portrait and includes one much better known and less liked person).

Ok, i'm dense...what uniform is it and who is it?

 

[keith99]

Ok, i'm dense...what uniform is it and who is it?

The uniform is WW II German as of course is the wearer, Count Claus von Stauffenberg.

 

[Bombila]

Here, Brinny - sometimes Wikipedia is just the thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_Schenk_von_Stauffenberg

 

[keith99]

Hopefully there are 3 pictures attached to this post. One is likely the last picture of Claus, and more apt to draw controversy. The other two are Heinz and Oster. 2 cold hearted duds (can't use the word I would even though I would mean it as the greatest of compliments). If only the allies had stood up to Hitler early their plot within a plot might have ended WW II before it really started.

 

[brinny]

Here, Brinny - sometimes Wikipedia is just the thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_Schenk_von_Stauffenberg

thanks Bombila.

 

[brinny]

Hopefully there are 3 pictures attached to this post. One is likely the last picture of Claus, and more apt to draw controversy. The other two are Heinz and Oster. 2 cold hearted duds (can't use the word I would even though I would mean it as the greatest of compliments). If only the allies had stood up to Hitler early their plot within a plot might have ended WW II before it really started.

why would the last photo draw controversy? And can you explain more what you mean when you say Heinz and Oster are 2 cold hearted duds?

 

[keith99]

why would the last photo draw controversy? And can you explain more what you mean when you say Heinz and Oster are 2 cold hearted duds?

The last picture of Claus is the first of the 3. I'd think the guy in hte center with the little mustache would not be very popular in most civilized circles.

Hans Oster was 2nd in command of the Abwer, German Military Intelegence. He was involved in plots against Hitler from the start. The first I know of was the plot within a plot. When Germany invaded
Czechoslovakia Hitler was to be arrested and either tried or declared insane. But key to that was that there was resistance and Germans died. I put it a German boys coming home in body bags. Instead Chech treasures came back. The plan fizzled.

But Oster and Heinz, the man who was to lead the troups arresting Hilter had decided Hitler was just to dangerous and he would die in a tragic crossfire.

 

[brinny]

were they, in any way, connected to the White Rose Society? And did you see the movie "Swing Kids"?

 

[keith99]

were they, in any way, connected to the White Rose Society? And did you see the movie "Swing Kids"?

No known link to 'The White Rose', and I would not expect one. These were professionals, 'The Wite Rose' got caught by foolishness. The Military/ Aristocratic conspiracy lasted for years and involved at least 16 plots to kill Hitler.

A side note. End times concerns seems to be on a downswing, but one still sees people occasionally identified as 'The Beast' becasue of fitting characteristics. Hitler seems to have had a few things that make him a far better fit than any since. Almost unkillable, but upholding and destroying the Church, he took over the Christian Church and it in worldly ways prospered, but in faith ways could have been thought of being destroyed. And of course he destroyed the Church, or at least tried to in his actions toward the Jews.

Never saw Swing Kids.

Are you familiar with Kristalnacht and The Night of the Long Knives.

Anyone else here at all expert on German Resistance in WW II? There used to be a great site, but it is gone. And there is one piece of information I am trying to find. There was one regiment that had a clear distinction. It is the 29th ot the 7th division or some variation of those numbers. I know it was based out of Potsdam. That makes searches worthless because of the Potsdam conference. In any case the distinction is the most officers executed for anti Hitler actions.

 

[Catherineanne]

I think that's fair. For the record I am not accusing you of anything I am simply confused, that is all. If you feel a little time away would be helpful then please have a rest and rejoin us when you are ready.

Be well

Tommy

I know you were not accusing. You were a voice of sanity in what felt like an ocean of madness last night.

Not returning just yet. I can see things are best as they are.

Peace.

Edited to add this for Keith; , and to recommend Albert Speer, His Battle with Truth by Gitta Sereny, if you have not already read it. Fascinating study of denial, guilt and attempted (but failed) reparation. Also first hand accounts of assassination attempts etc.

 

[keith99]

I know you were not accusing. You were a voice of sanity in what felt like an ocean of madness last night.

Not returning just yet. I can see things are best as they are.

Peace.

Edited to add this for Keith; , and to recommend Albert Speer, His Battle with Truth by Gitta Sereny, if you have not already read it. Fascinating study of denial, guilt and attempted (but failed) reparation. Also first hand accounts of assassination attempts etc.

I have not read that yet. I looked him up and what was said triggered so many thoughts. I may open a thread or two. Look for Bonhoeffer in the title.

The assassination attempts are interesting and frightening. Comparing first hand accounts to how things mutate the same.

I now feel I have to look somethign up, but don't have the book at hand. Bonhoeffer by Eberhard Bethge (over 800 pages) includes an excerpt form a letter written by Klaus Bonhoeffer expressing the fear he felt while on trial (while at the same time saying he was not afraid to die).

Oh and perhaps here is a place to go back a bit and speak a little to the title of this thread. It is not the Jews, but all who in a way 'lie' by omission about the holocaust. We think of it as efecting only the Jews. Bonhoeffers family was more than decimated. A large family even then. If I remember correctly Dietrich had 7 brothers and sisters. Of the men of that gneration in his family, counting siblings and husbands of sisters only 2 survived the war, none dies at allied hands. The only to survive were his oldest brother (how was seperated by about 6-7 years from the next closest) and his twin sisters husband. That one for a quite strange reason. He was a Jew. The family was politically aware. He got out in time.

 

[wanderingone]

I did not say anything about letting anyone off any hook. You assumed that for yourself, along with much of your spurious interpretation of what I said. There was nothing in my words to say any of that nonsense.

Once again, I asked a question about your post, what you meant by only God knows the truth. You explained it - I explained that I feel it lets people off the hook to say nobody really understands it. I didn't say you personally are letting people off the hook.

I would advise any of those who blithely cast accusations of holocaust denier to check their facts rather more carefully before making such serious charges.

I didn't say you or anyone else was a holocaust denier, there was a thread started by someone who apparently was, I believe it's still locked.

If the language is unclear, ask a question. Don't just condemn out of hand. Such condemnation says nothing about the accused, and everything about the intolerance of the accuser.

I didn't condemn, I asked, you're taking questions and comments as personal condemnation.

 

[keith99]

Once again, I asked a question about your post, what you meant by only God knows the truth. You explained it - I explained that I feel it lets people off the hook to say nobody really understands it. I didn't say you personally are letting people off the hook.



I didn't say you or anyone else was a holocaust denier, there was a thread started by someone who apparently was, I believe it's still locked.



I didn't condemn, I asked, you're taking questions and comments as personal condemnation.

I went back and scanned this thread again. Just want to point out that not too long before your post there was a post that while phrased as a series of questions seems to be an attack. Also a couple of rather nasty posts by a poster that has not posted on this thread since.

To me your intent (good) was clear, but often those attacked fight back and sometimes see other attacks where none was intended.

Perhaps what I'm trying to accomplish with this post is point out to you how Catherineanne could mistake your intent and to say to her I read your intent as trying to give her a chance to clarify things. Again my reading leads me to infer you were 90% sure she did not mean to say anything which could warrent an attack, but wanted to make things perfectly clear.

 

[Catherineanne]

Oh and perhaps here is a place to go back a bit and speak a little to the title of this thread. It is not the Jews, but all who in a way 'lie' by omission about the holocaust. We think of it as efecting only the Jews. Bonhoeffers family was more than decimated. A large family even then. If I remember correctly Dietrich had 7 brothers and sisters. Of the men of that gneration in his family, counting siblings and husbands of sisters only 2 survived the war, none dies at allied hands. The only to survive were his oldest brother (how was seperated by about 6-7 years from the next closest) and his twin sisters husband. That one for a quite strange reason. He was a Jew. The family was politically aware. He got out in time.

Lord have mercy on us all.

You are right. The six million is an approximate total for deaths in concentration camps, but is not all Jews. There were many, many Christians included as well, and Romanies and others. This was not just genocide, imo (appalling as that is) but crime against humanity as a whole. Which is why I equate it to other similar crimes, in other lands, and do not feel able to create a table of better, worse, worst. Such an attempt is beyond me.

The Nazi ideology was not just the simplistic 'kill all the Jews' mantra that is offered at times. It was supremacy of the 'Ayrian race', (which does not actually exist, of course) which is not at all the same thing. They were not interested only in killing Jews, but, in time, anyone who happened not to be Ayrian. The Jews, tragically, were an easy and accessible target, but others were Poles, Slavs, Romanies, Blacks, disabled people; anyone at all, really.

For some reason what touches me most, in all that I have read, is Goebbels's children. I hope I do not sound like a nazi sympathiser for this, but Goebbels was welcome to die, and his wife if she loved him and could not live without him. But why, in the name of humanity, did they kill their children first?

I don't think I will ever understand that.