Jews and Christians

[Meshavrischika]

I initially asked this question in general theology... but Tigerbunny suggested this was a better place for it.

Who thinks the Jews will eventually be with us (and Christ) in the end? Are they our brothers under God? What do you think supports/refutes this? Just curious.

I'm not implying they are covered by the blood of Christ, but that possibly they are still God's people too under His covenant with them, just as we are under His covenant with us.

Any thoughts would be great.

 

[interpreter]

I initially asked this question in general theology... but Tigerbunny suggested this was a better place for it.

Who thinks the Jews will eventually be with us (and Christ) in the end? Are they our brothers under God? What do you think supports/refutes this? Just curious.

I'm not implying they are covered by the blood of Christ, but that possibly they are still God's people too under His covenant with them, just as we are under His covenant with us.

Any thoughts would be great.

Much of the Revelation is about the Jews and the Holy Land. IMO, the "two witnesses" of the Revelation (the only ones found in the temple of God) are Jews and Christians.

 

[Hedgehog]

IMO, the "two witnesses" of the Revelation (the only ones found in the temple of God) are Jews and Christians.

How can that be when there is no Jew and Gentile distinction in Christ?

 

[Meshavrischika]

Because they are covered by another covenant? (not Christ)? ** this is a question response more than a statement**

 

[interpreter]

How can that be when there is no Jew and Gentile distinction in Christ?

Very few Jews are "in Christ," however the Old Covenant still applies to them.

 

[Meshavrischika]

See... that's what I was thinking. Anyway, great debate topic.

Do you think they'll face challenges in the end times that we do not?

 

[interpreter]

See... that's what I was thinking. Anyway, great debate topic.

Do you think they'll face challenges in the end times that we do not?

Yes, the Battle of Ar Mageddon will eventually spread to Israel.

 

[NumberOneSon]

Who thinks the Jews will eventually be with us (and Christ) in the end?

They are already with us now. All believing Jews are the natural branches, while we Gentile believers are blessed to have the opportunity to be grafted in.

Are they our brothers under God?

All believing Jews are our brothers under God. All unbelieving Jews are not our brothers under God, no more so than any other unbelievers.

What do you think supports/refutes this? Just curious.

Passages like John 8 and Romans 9 & 11.

I'm not implying they are covered by the blood of Christ, but that possibly they are still God's people too under His covenant with them, just as we are under His covenant with us.

Now that the Christ has come, being under the Old Covenant helps them not one bit. Even under the Old Covenant the Jews were saved by faith, and if modern Jews claim to be in covenant with God but reject Jesus as the Messiah, then their covenant is worthless. According to the Apostle John, anyone who denies the Son is antichrist.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Meshavrischika]

So basically you mean Messianic Jews are our brothers and we are grafted into them.

 

[NumberOneSon]

So basically you mean Messianic Jews are our brothers and we are grafted into them.

Precisely . Now I believe we are all God's children in the sense that He created us, but in the biblical sense only believers are God's true children and the only Jews who are our brothers in God are those who believe in Christ.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[gwynedd1]

So basically you mean Messianic Jews are our brothers and we are grafted into them.

Hello ElsanRandiMom,

We are grafted into the same tree and with every faithful Israelite there ever was and will be. It is one tree thus we are joined togther as branches

Matthew 22
32: `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."


The Jews do not have any separate covenant. The old covenant was broken.
Zechariah 11
10: And I took my staff Grace, and I broke it, annulling the covenant which I had made with all the peoples.

Hebrews 8

6: But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.
8: For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9: not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.
10: This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11: And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
13: In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[gwynedd1]

Very few Jews are "in Christ," however the Old Covenant still applies to them.

Hello interpreter,

This is specific to a Hebrews audience.

Hebrews 8
13: In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[interpreter]

Hello interpreter,

This is specific to a Hebrews audience.

Hebrews 8
13: In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

I personally am a Christian Jew so I'm covered by two covenants.

 

[TigerBunny]

I initially asked this question in general theology... but Tigerbunny suggested this was a better place for it.

Who thinks the Jews will eventually be with us (and Christ) in the end? Are they our brothers under God? What do you think supports/refutes this? Just curious.

I'm not implying they are covered by the blood of Christ, but that possibly they are still God's people too under His covenant with them, just as we are under His covenant with us.

Any thoughts would be great.

Hope the folks here are helpful to you.

 

[Psalms34]

Well, I’m not a Jew and I am not a Gentile, I am simply a Christian of the Church in Christ. If I were a Jew, being re-grafted in, I would no longer be a Jew. If I were a Gentile I would no longer be a Gentile. I am simply a Child of God. Only through Jesus do I become a Child of God, none else are.

One day, the fullness of the Gentiles will come in, and that will be the end of the grafting, but one does not graft the tree all around, but only a section then it is allowed to grow again. Though I am grafted into or back into the tree, depending on hither I came be Jew or Gentile, the branches are still distinct and bare different fruit. They do not become the tree, nor do they replace the tree but only those branches removed from the section that they are grafted into. Not very “spiritual” but aren’t so many things overly spiritualized already?

 

[jefwins]

21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

2 Sons and Allegory for two covenants.
Esau
Bondmaid
Born after the flesh
Mosaic Covenant
Mt Sinai
Bondage
Hagar
Jerusalem which now is
In bondage with her children

Isaac
Freewoman
Children of promise
New Covenant
Mt Zion (Heb 12)
Freedom
Jerusalem which is above
Children of the free

Which covenant do you want to be under the Ishmael Covenant or the Isaac Covenant?

 

[Hedgehog]

DANG good post Jefwins.

Do you have any more insight as to that passage you quoted?
Im just wondering your thoughts.

Especially this: 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son:


Would you take that to mean cast out the first covenant?
Would you say Isaac was under the "new" covenant?

 

[Hedgehog]

I wanted to add one more thing.

Ishmael was promised to be a father of 12 princes... so possibly the "allegory" of the covenants goes further as the old covenant people (Jews) had the 12 tribes of course.

 

[gwynedd1]

Even under the Old Covenant the Jews were saved by faith

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Hello Acts,

Abaraham was choosen because he believed God. God says Jesus Christ is God' s annointed who fulfilled the law. Anyone who follows the old law does not believe God. It is not who believed God but who believes.

 

[gwynedd1]

21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

2 Sons and Allegory for two covenants.
Esau
Bondmaid
Born after the flesh
Mosaic Covenant
Mt Sinai
Bondage
Hagar
Jerusalem which now is
In bondage with her children

Isaac
Freewoman
Children of promise
New Covenant
Mt Zion (Heb 12)
Freedom
Jerusalem which is above
Children of the free

Which covenant do you want to be under the Ishmael Covenant or the Isaac Covenant?

Hello Jefwins,

I know you know this because I see the last line but I think you want to compare Isaac/Ishmael at the top. Both Isaac/Isamael and Jacob/Esau are instructive in different ways.
The first one you did well in describing bond and free.

Comparing Jacob and Esau is also interesting. Esau lost his birthright. Even now the people of the kingdom have lost their birthright though they seek it with tears.


Hebrews 12

15: See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;
16: that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
17: For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

The Wailing Wall almost seems prophetic.