Jews and Christian Zionism

[yaqovzadeek]

here is the link of the Documentary by Ted Pike Zionism and Christiany an unholy Alliance click here to view
Peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the Just

 

[czach8]

Groups in general work together for a mutual benefit,
as well as for their own needs. It could just as easily
be said the Christians are using us for their agenda
of trying to hasten the return of their messiah.
I choose to believe that we can work together in
friendship and mutual benefit. If you see otherwise,
fine by me.
I have found that Christian Zionists have raised
money for Israel, made donations of clothing, food
and medical supplies, as well as supported tourism
which is important to Israel's economy. Nothing
wrong with a little talking either.
Also, the OP was asking about what Jews thought
about Christian Zionists. So far I am the only
one to answer...sorry if you disagree with my
opinion.

No, your right. All is business, and business is never personal. Anyway, Israel and some Muslim countries do business together, and there are no problems between them.

Peace.

 

[ChavaK]

Israel and some Muslim countries do business together, and there are no problems between them.

Peace.

May these ties increase in the future- hopefully
all will learn to work together for mutual as
well as individual benefit.....

 

[BibleMadeMeDoIt]

My husband and I have both worked with Christian Zionists and we do not have any problem with it
at all. We will take any support we can get for
Israel.
In my experience, Orthodox and traditional Jews
are accepting of Christian zionists. It is the
non-religous Jews that seem to be suspicious
of them.
Many Chrisitans are Zionists and are honestly
supporting the state of Israel so Jews can
return to the land, and thus hasten the
return of the Christian messiah. They do not
prosletize Jews and are honest and forth right.
I am sure a percentage (hopefully small) do
prosletize, and that we do have a problem with.
Support for Israel, no trying to convert Jews=
acceptance by the Jewish community (at
least the observant Jews).

Interesting that this was also a view held by many German Jews before the Nazi's got out of hand. The Zionist were open to the "help" to get them back to Palestine and we all know what happened after.

Zionism and Nazi's
http://www.rense.com/general34/ZAND.HTM

I personally do not see how one can approve of or trust anyone who feels that one is going to be burned for eternity in hell for not accepting their religious belief. I'm sure if you ask your friendly Christian Zionist if your soul is saved simply for being a good person and you continue deny Christ, you won't be happy with their answer.

 

[ChavaK]

Interesting that this was also a view held by many German Jews before the Nazi's got out of hand. The Zionist were open to the "help" to get them back to Palestine and we all know what happened after.

Zionism and Nazi's
http://www.rense.com/general34/ZAND.HTM

I personally do not see how one can approve of or trust anyone who feels that one is going to be burned for eternity in hell for not accepting their religious belief. I'm sure if you ask your friendly Christian Zionist if your soul is saved simply for being a good person and you continue deny Christ, you won't be happy with their answer.

I think it is just a bit of a stretch to compare Evangelical Christians and Natzis...
I know perfectly well what their answer would be should
I ask if I am "saved" soley because I am a good person.
And I don't care what they believe... just like I don't care if they think that by hastening the return of Jews to Israel they are
bringing back their messiah...because of course I do not believe it will ever happen. They can believe what they want,just as I am free to reject those beliefs.
But that still doesn't mean we cannot work together...

 

[BibleMadeMeDoIt]

I think it is just a bit of a stretch to compare Evangelical Christians and Natzis...
I know perfectly well what their answer would be should
I ask if I am "saved" soley because I am a good person.
And I don't care what they believe... just like I don't care if they think that by hastening the return of Jews to Israel they are
bringing back their messiah...because of course I do not believe it will ever happen. They can believe what they want,just as I am free to reject those beliefs.
But that still doesn't mean we cannot work together...

I'm not really comparing the Christians to the Nazi's, I'm just commenting about how people are so open to take one as a "friend" when their getting ones needs and desires fulfilled. You made that clear, as long as they are doing what you desire, you don't care what they do. But in reality, they are deep down against you. I'm sure the German Jews did not ever think the Nazi's would one day seek to destroy their entire "race" during the time they were shaking hands and "working" together.

Right now you are free to reject their beliefs, if Evangelicals were able to get enough political power in our country (I'm an American also) you would not have that right. And pretty sure some of those same people who are Christian Zionist would be helping restrict your religious freedoms.

 

[ChavaK]

Right now you are free to reject their beliefs, if Evangelicals were able to get enough political power in our country (I'm an American also) you would not have that right. And pretty sure some of those same people who are Christian Zionist would be helping restrict your religious freedoms.

That's the beauty of our political system here...there
is no way an Evangelical is ever going to be able to
restrict a persons religous freedom, short of an
overthrow of the government and the constitution, that is...

 

[arunma]

I'm not really comparing the Christians to the Nazi's, I'm just commenting about how people are so open to take one as a "friend" when their getting ones needs and desires fulfilled. You made that clear, as long as they are doing what you desire, you don't care what they do. But in reality, they are deep down against you. I'm sure the German Jews did not ever think the Nazi's would one day seek to destroy their entire "race" during the time they were shaking hands and "working" together.

Right now you are free to reject their beliefs, if Evangelicals were able to get enough political power in our country (I'm an American also) you would not have that right. And pretty sure some of those same people who are Christian Zionist would be helping restrict your religious freedoms.

Well speaking as an evangelical (one who believes that non-Christian Jews and Gentiles are going to hell), I would be strongly opposed to any legislation that would compel American citizens to practice Christianity. In fact, I am even against such things as school prayer and Ten Commandments monuments, specifically because they could be construed as religious compulsion. But then, I'm not a Zionist, so maybe I don't fit the profile you were describing. Still, you should know that many Christian Zionists have embraced the heresy that Jews who reject Christ can be saved simply by being Jewish. I doubt the Zionists would do as you have said.

 

[muffler dragon]

What do Jews think of Christian Zionism? Do you see Christian Zionists as dangerous fanatics, political allies, or what exactly? Thanks for the input.

As Chava has said, there are opinions as varied as the colors of the rainbow on this topic. I have an Orthodox acquaintance who absolutely abhors the idea of Christian Zionism, and there are others who are fine with it.

Many times, the reaction is due to past interactions (I believe).

I've been told by the majority that it's good to follow the proverb of accepting what one will give you with kindness for their charity.

 

[marli]

I agree. Everyone who does not believe in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his or her sins will go to hell, and there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. The problem with Christian Zionism is that it leads to the idea that Jews are a chosen people on the basis of their ethnic lineage (election is based on faith in Jesus Christ, something that religious Jews reject). Ultimately, many Christian Zionists believe that a person who rejects Jesus can be saved simply by virtue of his being Jewish. And that is not Biblical.

As to the issue of Zionism, the Bible teaches that Christians (both Jewish and Gentile) are the rightful heirs to the promises made to the patriarchs, and that we receive this at the second advent of Christ. In the mean time, decisions regarding the state of Israel should be made with respect to international law, and the safety and security of both Israelis and Palestinians. Christians ought not to show favor to either side.

BTW, I would like to make one note to Christian Zionists. There is a Christian population among the Palestinians. So every time you say that God's Chosen are taking their rightful inheritance back from the Gentile thieves, you are condemning your fellow Christian. Please do not love an unbeliever (whether Jewish or Gentile) more than your Christian brother.

Someone please correct me if I make any mistakes in the next few paragraphs -- the modern day definition of a Jew is someone with a Jewish mother, or someone who's undergone a long and arduous conversion process. It's also said that a person who is born Jewish is Jewish regardless of whether he/she is observant.

However, there's a passage in Exodus describing the first Pesach that said that any of the Hebrews who did not follow the laws regarding the feast would be excluded from Israel. It also said that if a stranger came along and truly wanted to take part in the feast of unleavened bread, he could do so after first being circumcised.

So does this not imply that being Jewish by birth is not enough in order to inherit Zion?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting that this was also a view held by many German Jews before the Nazi's got out of hand. The Zionist were open to the "help" to get them back to Palestine and we all know what happened after.

Zionism and Nazi's
http://www.rense.com/general34/ZAND.HTM

I personally do not see how one can approve of or trust anyone who feels that one is going to be burned for eternity in hell for not accepting their religious belief. I'm sure if you ask your friendly Christian Zionist if your soul is saved simply for being a good person and you continue deny Christ, you won't be happy with their answer.

Fortunately, a lot Christ-ians are not looking at others as being saved or not or whether they belong to a religion or not.

As far as the country of Israel, I do not see them or the people in it [whether Jew or Muslim] as being any more "scripturally/biblically" special than an Indian in India or a Buddhist in China or a Christ-ian in the US.

We are all people living on the same Planet, and either we better learn to get along with each other or be "cast" down together.

Matthew 8:12 "But the sons of the kingdom shall be being "cast out" [#1544] into outer [#1857] darkness.

Reve 11:2 and, the Court/Palace [Court of High Priest/Altar of Burnt Offerings?] the one without the Sanctuary[#3485], be you casting out!! [#1544 ekbale] out-side,[exw #1854] and you should not be measuring, that it was given unto the nations/eqnesin <1484>

 

[muffler dragon]

Someone please correct me if I make any mistakes in the next few paragraphs -- the modern day definition of a Jew is someone with a Jewish mother, or someone who's undergone a long and arduous conversion process. It's also said that a person who is born Jewish is Jewish regardless of whether he/she is observant.

This is true. You are speaking about Jewish law.

However, there's a passage in Exodus describing the first Pesach that said that any of the Hebrews who did not follow the laws regarding the feast would be excluded from Israel.

I'm not knowledgeable on the considerations of this. Kareit is not a topic I have spent a great deal of time investigating.

It also said that if a stranger came along and truly wanted to take part in the feast of unleavened bread, he could do so after first being circumcised.

The "stranger among us" and other phrases of this sort is a Jewish convert. (note: the circumcision)

So does this not imply that being Jewish by birth is not enough in order to inherit Zion?

What do you mean by "inherit Zion"? What is your interpretation of the phrase?

 

[marli]

"To inherit Zion" -- Well... to be considered a part of the Jewish nation. My point was, it seems like, according to the passages i referenced, that:

An Israelite who doesn't follow halacha is cast out. A non-Israelite who follows halacha is taken in.

 

[muffler dragon]

"To inherit Zion" -- Well... to be considered a part of the Jewish nation. My point was, it seems like, according to the passages i referenced, that:

An Israelite who doesn't follow halacha is cast out.

I don't know how this would be determined in this day and age. But then again, I'm not Jewish.

A non-Israelite who follows halacha is taken in.

As I said before, this is speaking of a convert to Judaism.

 

[marli]

It's not as if I don't understand what conversion is. I'm just saying that there seems to be free passage in and out of Judaism. You want in, you get in. You want out, you're out.

 

[muffler dragon]

It's not as if I don't understand what conversion is. I'm just saying that there seems to be free passage in and out of Judaism. You want in, you get in. You want out, you're out.

This would not be the case. The times and considerations have changed since the Pesach in Exodus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"To inherit Zion" -- Well... to be considered a part of the Jewish nation. My point was, it seems like, according to the passages i referenced, that:

An Israelite who doesn't follow halacha is cast out. A non-Israelite who follows halacha is taken in.

And would he also have to become a citizen of Israel to be an Israelite?

 

[arunma]

And would he also have to become a citizen of Israel to be an Israelite?

If I were you, I might respond to this post like this:

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus [G2424] Christ,

Alas, I am not you, and I have likely failed in some way.

 

[marli]

By Israelite, I don't mean the political, Mediterranean nation of Israel. I mean the children of Israel; that is, Jacob's children.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

By Israelite, I don't mean the political, Mediterranean nation of Israel. I mean the children of Israel; that is, Jacob's children.

How do we know if we or anyone else is descended from them today? Just curious.

Luke 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute [you,] delivering [you] up to the synagogues and prisons.28 "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."