Jewish angelic languages?

[Daniel Marsh]

(ii) There is Jewish precedent for Paul's believe that believers can speak in angelic tongues. Paul's revered contemporary, Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai, had a reputation for being able to interpret angelic tongues; and people speak in angelic tongues in the later Testament of Job.

The Need to Speak in Tongues at Home

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Someone, made that claim above. I found the information concerning the testament of job which turns out to be from a cultist source. But, there was no primary information or source given for the claim about the Rabbi. The author also refereed to another interesting source about mystery religions back then and from TNDT or something like that. I would like to see the primary sources online.

Thanks to however, that is
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am still waiting for the proof of that claim about the Rabbi.

I posted in the original thread that Testament of Job was an addition by a well known cult in church history.

The Text with Addition at end:
The Wesley Center Online: Testament Of Job

"A suggestion has been made that the Montanists, a second-century pneumatic-prophetic Christian group, may be responsible for the final section of the document (TJob 46-53), where praise of patient endurance gives way to the daughters of Job speaking the language of the angels and the Cherubim.

In their contest with the Montanists, the orthodox Christians demanded biblical precedent for prophets who spoke in ecstasy (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History V.17.1-3). Though proof is not possible, it is an attractive possibility to think that the TJob in its present form was furnished by the Montanists as a rigged pseudo-canonical precedent to legitimate their own ecstatic, and largely female, prophecy."
Testament of Job

Google

only 184,000 links in less than a second knows that to be fact.

 

[Biblicist]

To my knowledge, our understanding of the early Jewish belief that man could speak in the languages of Angels is taken from the Testament of Job, which may have been written in the century before Christ which means that has some bearing on the populist Jewish understanding of tongues, or that it was written a few decades after Christ under some Christian influence, which means that it may have been an idea that was superimposed back into early Jewish thought. As to the answer to this - who knows!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Recent research has suggested that the Montanists were not much different from modern Charismatics in their doctrine and practice. I guess that the opposing comments about them would be quite similar to opposing comments about modern Charismatics. So...there is nothing new under the sun!

 

[swordsman1]

Recent research has suggested that the Montanists were not much different from modern Charismatics in their doctrine and practice. I guess that the opposing comments about them would be quite similar to opposing comments about modern Charismatics. So...there is nothing new under the sun!

You are quite right. There are many similarities between Montanism and today's charismatic movement:

• The Montanists spoke in strange unintellible speech, which the early Church Fathers termed "bastard utterances" as it did not match their understanding of the gift of tongues being the miraculous speaking of foreign languages that had occurred only a few decades earlier.
  
  
• The Montanists regularly made false prophecies that did not come to pass.
  
  
• They often exhibited frenzies, convulsions, and ecstatic states in their services.
  
  
• It caused big splits in Christian communities.

There is one big difference of course. The early church quickly branded them as false prophets and heretics, and excommunicated them from the Church. Whereas in today's churches such unbiblical teachings and practices are accepted, and the people making false prophecies are given a pat on the back and told "better luck next time". If only the leaders of today's mainline denominations that have been infiltrated by this movement had the foresight and guts of the early Church Fathers.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are quite right. There are many similarities between Montanism and today's charismatic movement:

• The Montanists spoke in strange unintellible speech, which the early Church Fathers termed "bastard utterances" as it did not match their understanding of the gift of tongues being the miraculous speaking of foreign languages that had occurred only a few decades earlier.
  
  
• The Montanists regularly made false prophecies that did not come to pass.
  
  
• They often exhibited frenzies, convulsions, and ecstatic states in their services.
  
  
• It caused big splits in Christian communities.

There is one big difference of course. The early church quickly branded them as false prophets and heretics, and excommunicated them from the Church. Whereas in today's churches such unbiblical teachings and practices are accepted, and the people making false prophecies are given a pat on the back and told "better luck next time". If only the leaders of today's mainline denominations that have been infiltrated by this movement had the foresight and guts of the early Church Fathers.

We have to understand that the majority of the reports that exist about that movement have been written by their enemies. We have to take that into account. I know that Tertullian was a Montanist at one stage. I have yet to read what he has to say about them, if he has written anything. He is regarded as one of the great Early Church fathers and theologians and he was not considered a heretic then or now, so that has to be taken into account as well.

We don't know whether their prophecies came to pass or not, because would their orthodox enemies who no longer believed in the prophetic be prepared to acknowledge that their prophecies might have come to pass?

And the enemies of the Charismatic churches today say the same things about them, and having been associated with Charismatic churches for many years, I have never witnessed anything like that. I have witnessed some spooky things at times with a minority lunatic fringe, which were not accepted by the majority, but never widespread frenzied or ecstatic behaviour at any time. The reality about the Montanists might have been exactly the same!

By the time the Montanists emerged, the gift of tongues had disappeared from most orthodox churches, so all these church commentators had no personal experience of actually hearing tongues being spoken. It may be that the Montanists ignored Paul's teaching that tongues should have been spoken in public services by two or at the most three and that the tongues needed interpretation. So, I would take those comments with a grain of salt as well. The real prayer in tongues is never heard in churches, because it is restricted to private prayer times between the believer and God.

If you know of any of the literature that the Montanist wrote that was not destroyed by their enemies, I would be interested in reading it.

 

[Adhmar]

God talks to his Angels "Telepathically." Maybe Telepathic is the wrong word, but towards the right idea. It is like "Radar Love" Golden Earring.

There are many tongues in The Bible. In Revelations it mentions a tongue like a dragon. What is a tongue like a dragon? A dragon has a gold horde. Wisdom is more precious than silver and gold. Someone with a tongue like a dragon may have a hidden pool of knowledge, and works to deceive others and "occult" understanding and truth away from people so they live in ignorance while he has the knowledge. I would point out Taylor Swift and her Secret Sessions, and her fixation on Secret Societies.

A tongue like an Angel may be a tongue like a double edged sword. It is like Santa Claus or Saint Nick. A man's words may bring good presents to good children, and at the same time, give coal to bad children, or beat them with a proverbial stick till they cry. To wield it well a man needs to know God's love. The Truth hurts.

 

[Biblicist]

You are quite right. There are many similarities between Montanism and today's charismatic movement:

• The Montanists spoke in strange unintellible speech, which the early Church Fathers termed "bastard utterances" as it did not match their understanding of the gift of tongues being the miraculous speaking of foreign languages that had occurred only a few decades earlier.
  
  
• The Montanists regularly made false prophecies that did not come to pass.
  
  
• They often exhibited frenzies, convulsions, and ecstatic states in their services.
  
  
• It caused big splits in Christian communities.

There is one big difference of course. The early church quickly branded them as false prophets and heretics, and excommunicated them from the Church. Whereas in today's churches such unbiblical teachings and practices are accepted, and the people making false prophecies are given a pat on the back and told "better luck next time". If only the leaders of today's mainline denominations that have been infiltrated by this movement had the foresight and guts of the early Church Fathers.

We should remember that many of the churchmen of the Third and Fourth centuries were probably very little different from the liberal church goers of our current day, where these men of old and of today both seem to have very little understanding of the things of the Spirit and for that matter most appear to have had a very poor understanding of the Scriptures; don't forget, it was many of these same worldly individuals who led the Church into its 1000 years of Darkness.

 

[Biblicist]

We have to understand that the majority of the reports that exist about that movement have been written by their enemies. We have to take that into account. I know that Tertullian was a Montanist at one stage. I have yet to read what he has to say about them, if he has written anything. He is regarded as one of the great Early Church fathers and theologians and he was not considered a heretic then or now, so that has to be taken into account as well.

We don't know whether their prophecies came to pass or not, because would their orthodox enemies who no longer believed in the prophetic be prepared to acknowledge that their prophecies might have come to pass?

And the enemies of the Charismatic churches today say the same things about them, and having been associated with Charismatic churches for many years, I have never witnessed anything like that. I have witnessed some spooky things at times with a minority lunatic fringe, which were not accepted by the majority, but never widespread frenzied or ecstatic behaviour at any time. The reality about the Montanists might have been exactly the same!

By the time the Montanists emerged, the gift of tongues had disappeared from most orthodox churches, so all these church commentators had no personal experience of actually hearing tongues being spoken. It may be that the Montanists ignored Paul's teaching that tongues should have been spoken in public services by two or at the most three and that the tongues needed interpretation. So, I would take those comments with a grain of salt as well. The real prayer in tongues is never heard in churches, because it is restricted to private prayer times between the believer and God.

If you know of any of the literature that the Montanist wrote that was not destroyed by their enemies, I would be interested in reading it.

If the Lord were to return in another 500 to 1000 years, I wonder how the future Church historians would record the contemporary Church of the past 100 years. I would expect that when it comes to prophecy that they would undoubtedly refer to the numerous bogus tele-prophets with their false prophecies, but unlike Rome who has essentially re-written the history of the Church of the first five centuries (maybe partially through ignorance and a lack of documentation), as we have a wealth of information regarding the many thousands of contemporary prophets who correctly prophesy, then I would imagine that they would of course dismiss the rogue 'prophets' who were akin to the extreme elements of Montanism, but they would also recognise that the past century has seen the restoration of the Office of the NT prophet.

 

[jesse67]

I think tongues of angels are tongue languages for angels, and tongues of men are tongue languages for men. I don't think tongues of angels are angelic languages, because I don't believe angels have different languages. this is based on an experience I had that led me to that conclusion.

 

[Dave-W]

....

 

[Steve Petersen]

You will find the discussion in the Talmud about the language of heaven. Some believed it was Hebrew (the holy tongue,) others that it was Aramaic. Sotah 33a, Shabbat 12b.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Recent research has suggested that the Montanists were not much different from modern Charismatics in their doctrine and practice. I guess that the opposing comments about them would be quite similar to opposing comments about modern Charismatics. So...there is nothing new under the sun!

"The anonymous opponent of the sect describes the method of prophecy (Eusebius, V, xvii, 2-3): first the prophet appears distraught with terror (en parekstasei), then follows quiet (adeia kai aphobia, fearlessness); beginning by studied vacancy of thought or passivity of intellect (ekousios amathia), he is seized by an uncontrollable madness (akousios mania psyches). The prophets did not speak as messengers of God: "Thus saith the Lord," but described themselves as possessed by God and spoke in His Person. "I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete," said Montanus (Didymus, "De Trin.", III, xli); and again: "I am the Lord God omnipotent, who have descended into to man", and "neither an angel, nor an ambassador, but I, the Lord, the Father, am come" (Epiphanius, "Hær.", xlviii, 11). And Maximilla said: "Hear not me, but hear Christ" (ibid.); and: "I am driven off from among the sheep like a wolf [that is, a false prophet--cf. Matthew 7:15]; I am not a wolf, but I am speech, and spirit, and power." This possession by a spirit, which spoke while the prophet was incapable of resisting, is described by the spirit of Montanus: "Behold the man is like a lyre, and I dart like the plectrum. The man sleeps, and I am awake" (Epiphanius, "Hær.", xlviii, 4)."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Montanists

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"In the treatise De Monogamia second marriage is considered by Tertullian as the equivalent of adultery.5° Monogamy is thought of as a sacrament. * Tertullian states* "One marriage we acknowledge as we do one God. M " He cites the example of Christ to show that the highest state of all is the unmarried.53 In his later writings Tertullian impugned second marriage more strongly than ever and classed all who had re-married under the category of those who could enjoy no remission.^ Those who recommended a less rigid course, he called by the harsh name of animales, i.e., foreigners to the influence of the Spirit. Here it is clear that Tertullian had placed burdens on the believers grievous to be borne. In his zeal the reformer has gone beyond the teaching of the New Testament."

http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/4543/1/Murdoch46PhD.pdf

 

[Daniel Marsh]

" One of his more serious and obviously heretical prophesies was that an apocalyptic spirit was abroad and that Christ was to soon return and set up the New Jerusalem in the vicinity of the town of Pepuza in Phrygia, Asia Minor. This, of course, never happened and proved again that they were false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)."

What is Montanism?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

" One of his more serious and obviously heretical prophesies was that an apocalyptic spirit was abroad and that Christ was to soon return and set up the New Jerusalem in the vicinity of the town of Pepuza in Phrygia, Asia Minor. This, of course, never happened and proved again that they were false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)."

What is Montanism?

One has to consider that because the literature written by the Montanists was destroyed by the Orthodox Church of the time, the only descriptions of it were from their enemies. This must put a negative bias on any reports about them and the literal accounts must be taken with a grain of salt. One then must read between the lines to get closer to the truth concerning the movement.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

bump

 

[St. Helens]

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