Jesus was resurrected on the Feast of the First Fruits

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Josephus says the popularity of the Pharisees among the people often made them go along with them.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
That is correct. The Sadducees were not well liked by the common folk. The Sadducees were considered "snobbish" and catered to the elite and aristocrats while supporting the Roman occupation. Of course, this is according to the writings of the opponents the Pharisees. None of the Sadducee writings escaped the destruction of the Temple and all we know about them is what is written by the Pharisees and their supporters. So, I advise caution when reading critiques of the Sadducees by their political and religious enemies. However, we do know at one time the Sadducees did control the temple, sometime during the first century CE but no one seems to know for sure when the Pharisees regained control of the Temple and the counting of the Omer in that first century CE.

The gospels do seem to support this in that they were those selected as Judges. They sat themselves in the seat of Moses.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Pharisees sat in Moses seat, but Moses's seat was not the Temple. The Temple was run by the seat of Aaron, all priests. The seat of Moses was in every synagogue across Galilee and Judea and the common folk were more inclined to follow the leaders of the synagogue (Pharisees) than they were the Sadducees but until the Pharisees regained control of the Temple priesthood the nation followed the laws of the land enacted by the Sanhedrin, which was dominated by the Sadducees. I just don't know for sure when the Pharisees regained control of the Temple, only that it was some time during the life of Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai (sometime between 30 CE and 90 CE).

When difficult disputes came before the highest court, the highpriest had to agree together on the verdict, making it law. The two sects had developed each having power in the court. The interesting thing is, how much of Jewish law had been handed down that was neither Sadducee, nor Pharisee? Since two sects disagreed with each other, none of their sectarian views could be established law. The seat of Moses was the difficult cases to decide with the priests and judges. Nothing that came from that seat was sectarian. And to consider how much was decided from the days of Moses that law was established?

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Sadducees dominated the Sanhedrin at one point and it was their view of the holy days that prevailed upon the land, whether or not the general population respected them. During this time they waved the Omer on Sunday of Passover week, the day after the Sabbath per Leviticus 23:11. Then, as time went on, the Pharisees regained control of the Temple and decided which day on which to wave the Omer. It is difficult to get the Sadducean view since all we know about them are written by their political and religious enemies, the Pharisees and their descendants. There are no writings of the Sadduceans that survived the destruction of the Temple and the Sadducees faded away from existence after the Temple fell. So, when we read Josephus's description of the Sadducees we must use caution and not jump to conclusions that may be erroneous. Josephus and other rabbis that dominated Jewish religious life after the fall of the Temple write that the Sadducees "were afraid of the Pharisees" and the Sadducees very "meekly" followed the Pharisees on their way to wave the Omer on Nisan 16 every year. Just use caution.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Here is true original "oral law"
Deut 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgmentt
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

In the above verses the word for "SENTENCE" is literally "MOUTH". Law from the mouth = oral law
Even the lower courts were presided over by the priests

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

Again in the above verse by their word every controversy be tried, literally reads "by their MOUTH" = oral law

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Whenever you hear a preacher proclaiming the written word to your ears, is that "oral law?" In one sense it is since the preacher is orally proclaiming the scripture (by his MOUTH) to you. But that doesn't mean what he is telling you (orally) is oral Law, it is the written law which is being proclaimed orally. That's not what rabbis mean when they talk about "oral" law. There is the written Law (the Torah) which is proclaimed orally in the synagogues and then there is oral law, which often supersedes the written Law, the Law Christians read in the Bible. The Pharisees interpreted the Torah in light of a oral law passed down from generation to generation. That oral law could not be found in the Hebrew Scriptures. The oral Law superseded the authority of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Sadducees disagreed. They didn't believe in the oral law, they believed int the wrritten Law only. When they read the written Law they would speak the law to people and when they did, they did it "orally" in other words, "by their MOUTH". But that never meant they followed the oral Law that the Pharisees held dear.

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Whenever you hear a preacher proclaiming the written word to your ears, is that "oral law?" In one sense it is since the preacher is orally proclaiming the scripture (by his MOUTH) to you.

Exactly. Coming to a decision of a correct application.

But that doesn't mean what he is telling you (orally) is oral Law, it is the written law which is being proclaimed orally.

Exactly.

That's not what rabbis mean when they talk about "oral" law.

Yes it is. The Pharisees criticized the Sadducees for having "written their decisions in a book of Decrees. Are you aware of that? They said, they should not write it down but show it in the written Torah. When the temple was destroyed, they abolished it, along with the priesthood in their courts. Actually made its abolishment a holiday, but purposely would not give the date.
Then hypocritically did the same thing with the Talmud, for probably the very same reason the priesthood may have done so.


Lev 10:8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

How many scripture do you need?

De 24:8 Take heed in the plague of leprosy, that thou observe diligently, and do according to all that the priests the Levites shall teach you: as I commanded them, so ye shall observe to do.

De 33:8 ¶ And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

There is more scripture in Malichai but this should suffice.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Exactly. Coming to a decision of a correct application.

Exactly.

Yes it is. The Pharisees criticized the Sadducees for having "written their decisions in a book of Decrees. Are you aware of that? They said, they should not write it down but show it in the written Torah. When the temple was destroyed, they abolished it, along with the priesthood in their courts. Actually made its abolishment a holiday, but purposely would not give the date.
Then hypocritically did the same thing with the Talmud, for probably the very same reason the priesthood may have done so.


Lev 10:8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

How many scripture do you need?

De 24:8 Take heed in the plague of leprosy, that thou observe diligently, and do according to all that the priests the Levites shall teach you: as I commanded them, so ye shall observe to do.

De 33:8 ¶ And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

There is more scripture in Malichai but this should suffice.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Here is something on the Oral Law:

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah | My Jewish Learning

Formulation of the Oral Torah. Gemara and The Talmud. Texts on Jewish Law. Jewish Texts.

www.myjewishlearning.com

"Torah in the Mouth”: An Introduction to the Rabbinic Oral Law | Religious Studies Center

It is important for religious educators to properly understand how Jews, especially ancient Jews, understood the oral law in order to help students gain a greater appreciation for the world in which Jesus lived.

rsc.byu.edu

Exactly. Coming to a decision of a correct application.

Exactly.

Yes it is. The Pharisees criticized the Sadducees for having "written their decisions in a book of Decrees. Are you aware of that? They said, they should not write it down but show it in the written Torah. When the temple was destroyed, they abolished it, along with the priesthood in their courts. Actually made its abolishment a holiday, but purposely would not give the date.
Then hypocritically did the same thing with the Talmud, for probably the very same reason the priesthood may have done so.


Lev 10:8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

How many scripture do you need?

De 24:8 Take heed in the plague of leprosy, that thou observe diligently, and do according to all that the priests the Levites shall teach you: as I commanded them, so ye shall observe to do.

De 33:8 ¶ And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

There is more scripture in Malichai but this should suffice.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Here is something on the Oral Law you may enjoy:

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Exactly. Coming to a decision of a correct application.

Exactly.

Yes it is. The Pharisees criticized the Sadducees for having "written their decisions in a book of Decrees. Are you aware of that? They said, they should not write it down but show it in the written Torah. When the temple was destroyed, they abolished it, along with the priesthood in their courts. Actually made its abolishment a holiday, but purposely would not give the date.
Then hypocritically did the same thing with the Talmud, for probably the very same reason the priesthood may have done so.


Lev 10:8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

How many scripture do you need?

De 24:8 Take heed in the plague of leprosy, that thou observe diligently, and do according to all that the priests the Levites shall teach you: as I commanded them, so ye shall observe to do.

De 33:8 ¶ And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

There is more scripture in Malichai but this should suffice.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Here are some links to Jewish Oral Law. Enjoy.

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah | My Jewish Learning

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812102/jewish/What-is-the-Oral-Torah.htm

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
That is correct. The Sadducees were not well liked by the common folk. The Sadducees were considered "snobbish" and catered to the elite and aristocrats while supporting the Roman occupation. Of course, this is according to the writings of the opponents the Pharisees. None of the Sadducee writings escaped the destruction of the Temple and all we know about them is what is written by the Pharisees and their supporters. So, I advise caution when reading critiques of the Sadducees by their political and religious enemies. However, we do know at one time the Sadducees did control the temple, sometime during the first century CE but no one seems to know for sure when the Pharisees regained control of the Temple and the counting of the Omer in that first century CE.

It was when the temple was destroyed. Rome gave them power from a new Sanhedrin at Yavneh. They usurped the priesthood then. Their tradition became law by the Authority Rome gave them.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Pharisees sat in Moses seat, but Moses's seat was not the Temple. The Temple was run by the seat of Aaron, all priests.

The synagogue was not a Sanhedrin. The law clearly says.
Those matters to difficult for the lower courts......
Deu 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:

Seat of Moses

13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
Lower courts small matters at all times.

Great matters brought to Moses..... Later to the perists, they were to get themselves a go to the place.......
19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Here is something on the Oral Law:

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah | My Jewish Learning

Formulation of the Oral Torah. Gemara and The Talmud. Texts on Jewish Law. Jewish Texts.

www.myjewishlearning.com

"Torah in the Mouth”: An Introduction to the Rabbinic Oral Law | Religious Studies Center

It is important for religious educators to properly understand how Jews, especially ancient Jews, understood the oral law in order to help students gain a greater appreciation for the world in which Jesus lived.

rsc.byu.edu

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Here is something on the Oral Law you may enjoy:

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Here are some links to Jewish Oral Law. Enjoy.

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna

The Written Torah and the Oral Torah | My Jewish Learning

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812102/jewish/What-is-the-Oral-Torah.htm

I have read most already. No oral law handed down from Moses. as they say it was necessary to understand. The highpriest had the urim and thumim and wore the breastplate of Judgement. He went in and consulted God himself, and received answeres from God himself. Kings sought such consultation. there was no need for ORAL TORAH as the Pharisees claim to themselves.
I suspect the loss of the urim and thumim ( in the time of the Maccabees) is the cause of the rise 0f sectarians in the court. These two sects were of late origins.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Exactly. Coming to a decision of a correct application.

Exactly.

Yes it is. The Pharisees criticized the Sadducees for having "written their decisions in a book of Decrees. Are you aware of that?

SABER TRUTH TIGER
When you read an accusation by the Pharisees against the Sadducees use extreme caution. What is wrong with a religious Jew writing his beliefs in a book of decrees? When I was young I wrote down a list of my religious beliefs and tried to have a systematic theology. There is nothing against writing laws from the Torah in a decree. That does not make it the Rabbinical Oral Law.

They said, they should not write it down but show it in the written Torah. When the temple was destroyed, they abolished it, along with the priesthood in their courts. Actually made its abolishment a holiday, but purposely would not give the date.
Then hypocritically did the same thing with the Talmud, for probably the very same reason the priesthood may have done so.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The rabbis oral Law is passed down from generation to generation and is believed to be superior to the written Law of the Torah. The Sadducees disagreed with that belief and held to the belief that the written Law in the Torah was the sole authority for their teachings.

Lev 10:8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Just like Christian parents do today. They teach their children how to live according to scripture. This is done orally, but the laws they are teaching their children are not based on oral tradition but the scripture itself, which is written.

How many scripture do you need?

SABER TRUTH TIGER
More than what you have shown me so far. None of the scriptures you have quoted have refuted my claim that the rabbis had an oral law, a oral tradition that was passed down over the centuries and had more power than the written Law of the Torah. Nothing you have quoted even remotely removes that fact. The rabbis held the oral Law in higher esteem than the Torah. When you read scripture (or quote scripture) to someone, that is done orally, but that does not mean it isn't the written word. Try again.

De 24:8 Take heed in the plague of leprosy, that thou observe diligently, and do according to all that the priests the Levites shall teach you: as I commanded them, so ye shall observe to do.

De 33:8 ¶ And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

There is more scripture in Malichai but this should suffice.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Seat of Moses

13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
Lower courts small matters at all times.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The seat of Moses in Jesus's day was the local synagogues. The priesthood did NOT sit in the seat of Moses, they were in the seat of Aaron, the descendants of Aaron and not Moses.

Great matters brought to Moses..... Later to the perists, they were to get themselves a go to the place.......
19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Moses's law was read from the synagogues every Sabbath day. The synagogues were considered the "seat of Moses". The Temple Priesthood was not considered the seat of Moses, it was in the seat of Aaron, the levitical priesthood.

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
When you read an accusation by the Pharisees against the Sadducees use extreme caution. What is wrong with a religious Jew writing his beliefs in a book of decrees? When I was young I wrote down a list of my religious beliefs and tried to have a systematic theology. There is nothing against writing laws from the Torah in a decree. That does not make it the Rabbinical Oral Law.


SABER TRUTH TIGER
The rabbis oral Law is passed down from generation to generation and is believed to be superior to the written Law of the Torah. The Sadducees disagreed with that belief and held to the belief that the written Law in the Torah was the sole authority for their teachings.


SABER TRUTH TIGER
Just like Christian parents do today. They teach their children how to live according to scripture. This is done orally, but the laws they are teaching their children are not based on oral tradition but the scripture itself, which is written.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
More than what you have shown me so far. None of the scriptures you have quoted have refuted my claim that the rabbis had an oral law, a oral tradition that was passed down over the centuries and had more power than the written Law of the Torah. Nothing you have quoted even remotely removes that fact. The rabbis held the oral Law in higher esteem than the Torah. When you read scripture (or quote scripture) to someone, that is done orally, but that does not mean it isn't the written word. Try again.

There was no need for an oral law handed down "as they say". The Highpriest went in and consulted God himself for an answer by urim (lights) and thummim. (perfection )
Now these oracles of God in this way may have been written down. But the answer came from God himself. There was no need for "oral law" as the Pharisees claim it.
When these were lost, if the priesthood ( not saducees, or Pharisees, or Essenes) could have written them down for the very same purpose the Pharisees said they did ( forbid it for the priesthood). When these were lost and the rulers began to divide in their opinions, this would be a very good reason why the Gospels proclaim the people were like sheep without a shepherd. After all the dispute over the festal calendar has been settled thousands of years ago, yet absent the urim and thummim no way to absolutely settle an issue. three sects each had their own calendar.

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The seat of Moses in Jesus's day was the local synagogues. The priesthood did NOT sit in the seat of Moses, they were in the seat of Aaron, the descendants of Aaron and not Moses.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Moses's law was read from the synagogues every Sabbath day. The synagogues were considered the "seat of Moses". The Temple Priesthood was not considered the seat of Moses, it was in the seat of Aaron, the levitical priesthood.

The synagogues were not the high court of the Sanhedrin. They may have MET in those places.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

There was no need for an oral law handed down "as they say". The Highpriest went in and consulted God himself for an answer by urim (lights) and thummim. (perfection )

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Yes, you are correct. There was no need for an oral law. But there WAS an oral law just the same. The High Priest did in fact inquire of the Urim and Thummim. But this does not remove the fact that the rabbis held the oral law in higher esteem than the written Law of the Torah.

Now these oracles of God in this way may have been written down. But the answer came from God himself. There was no need for "oral law" as the Pharisees claim it.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Good grief, railliann, of course God SPOKE the words and Moses wrote it down. The written Law was originally SPOKEN by God. The priest had access to the Urim and Thummim and he could inquire of Yahweh when he had a question about something. But the rabbis had an oral tradition that exceeded the written Torah. Why is this so hard for you to understand? So far nothing you have written refutes the fact the Pharisees and rabbis followed a oral tradition that was esteemed higher than the written Law?

RAILLIANN wrote:

When these were lost, if the priesthood ( not saducees, or Pharisees, or Essenes) could have written them down for the very same purpose the Pharisees said they did. When these wre lost and the rulers began to divide in their opinions, this would be a very good reason why the Gospels proclaim they were like sheep without a shepherd.​

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Oh yes, of course, when you use IF scenarios, IF this, then that, could have, etc., anything is possible, in theory at least. The fact remains: In the time of Jesus, the Pharisees held to an oral tradition, an oral law, that they held in higher esteem than the Torah. The Sadducees did not. You aren't making sense. Nothing you have written refutes the fact that the Pharisees held to an oral law that they esteemed greater than the Torah. If a professing Christian was to follow an oral tradition that was not found in the written Greek Scriptures, and he claimed that in order to be right with God, you must follow his oral tradition, would you follow his oral teaching?

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
When you read an accusation by the Pharisees against the Sadducees use extreme caution.

Agree

What is wrong with a religious Jew writing his beliefs in a book of decrees?

Nothing I can tell. The Pharisees however complained and then turned around and did the very same rthing. Hypocrits that is what is wrong

When I was young I wrote down a list of my religious beliefs and tried to have a systematic theology. There is nothing against writing laws from the Torah in a decree. That does not make it the Rabbinical Oral Law.

I am not complaining about oral law. Just the oral law as the Pharisees claim. Oral law came by urim and thumim when a difficult case came to the courts. The lower courts could not handle an issue and consulted God by going to the highpriest which consulted GOD HIMSELF, by urim and thumim. There is nothing wrong with writing down decisions from God by urim and thumim.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

The synagogues were not the high court of the Sanhedrin. They may have MET in those places.

I agree. Moses was taught in the synagogues every Sabbath. The Sanhedrin consisted of priests. allegedly descended from Aaron. The Sanhedrin was the Supreme Court of Israel and convened in Jerusalem. They also were in charge of the sacrifices and the observing of the holy days and Sabbaths. But the synagogues were the seat of Moses where Moses was read every Sabbath.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Agree

Nothing I can tell. The Pharisees however complained and then turned around and did the very same rthing. Hypocrits that is what is wrong

I am not complaining about oral law. Just the oral law as the Pharisees claim. Oral law came by urim and thumim when a difficult case came to the courts. The lower courts could not handle an issue and consulted God by going to the highpriest which consulted GOD HIMSELF, by urim and thumim. There is nothing wrong with writing down decisions from God by urim and thumim.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
You and I are talking past each other. When I write the "Oral Law" I am referring to the rabbinical "oral Law" that was given more esteem than the written Torah. The Pharisees eventually (long after Jesus was dead) wrote the oral law into the Talmuds. You, on the other hand, are referring to the oral law when Yahweh responded to the High Priest who consulted the Urim and Thummim. That is not what knowledgeable scholars mean when they refer to the rabbinical oral laws.

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Yes, you are correct. There was no need for an oral law. But there WAS an oral law just the same. The High Priest did in fact inquire of the Urim and Thummim. But this does not remove the fact that the rabbis held the oral law in higher esteem than the written Law of the Torah.


SABER TRUTH TIGER
Good grief, railliann, of course God SPOKE the words and Moses wrote it down. The written Law was originally SPOKEN by God. The priest had access to the Urim and Thummim and he could inquire of Yahweh when he had a question about something. But the rabbis had an oral tradition that exceeded the written Torah. Why is this so hard for you to understand? So far nothing you have written refutes the fact the Pharisees and rabbis followed a oral tradition that was esteemed higher than the written Law?

RAILLIANN wrote:

When these were lost, if the priesthood ( not saducees, or Pharisees, or Essenes) could have written them down for the very same purpose the Pharisees said they did. When these wre lost and the rulers began to divide in their opinions, this would be a very good reason why the Gospels proclaim they were like sheep without a shepherd.​

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Oh yes, of course, when you use IF scenarios, IF this, then that, could have, etc., anything is possible, in theory at least. The fact remains: In the time of Jesus, the Pharisees held to an oral tradition, an oral law, that they held in higher esteem than the Torah. The Sadducees did not. You aren't making sense. Nothing you have written refutes the fact that the Pharisees held to an oral law that they esteemed greater than the Torah. If a professing Christian was to follow an oral tradition that was not found in the written Greek Scriptures, and he claimed that in order to be right with God, you must follow his oral tradition, would you follow his oral teaching?

You are not following.
Maybe this will help you with oral law as opposed to the written law.
Passover, on the 14th day.... certain men could not do that, so now what.

5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.
6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:

What does Moses say........I will hear what the Lord will say....There was no written Torah concerning this situation......

7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?

So consults God to find out what to command concerning this........

8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.

9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

The answer became written law, because it was not hidden in written law at all

10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.
11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You are not following.
Maybe this will help you with oral law as opposed to the written law.
Passover, on the 14th day.... certain men could not do that, so now what.

5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.
6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:

What does Moses say........I will hear what the Lord will say....There was no written Torah concerning this situation......

7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?

So consults God to find out what to command concerning this........

8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.

9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

The answer became written law, because it was not hidden in written law at all

SABER TRUTH TIGER
At the time that happened, the Torah had not yet been written. There was no written Law except the tablets of stone on which the ten commandments had been written (with the finger of God). Later, when Moses wrote the Law, he included this event into the written Law so this event can be found in the written Law.

Numbers 9:
9 And the Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, 2 “Let the people of Israel keep the Passover at its appointed time. 3 On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall keep it at its appointed time; according to all its statutes and all its rules you shall keep it.” 4 So Moses told the people of Israel that they should keep the Passover. 5 And they kept the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the Lord commanded Moses, so the people of Israel did. 6 And there were certain men who were unclean through touching a dead body, so that they could not keep the Passover on that day, and they came before Moses and Aaron on that day. 7 And those men said to him, “We are unclean through touching a dead body. Why are we kept from bringing the Lord's offering at its appointed time among the people of Israel?” 8 And Moses said to them, “Wait, that I may hear what the Lord will command concerning you.”

9 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If any one of you or of your descendants is unclean through touching a dead body, or is on a long journey, he shall still keep the Passover to the Lord. 11 In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight they shall keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
See? The written Law didn't exist at that time. So Moses was entirely dependent on Yahweh giving him the Laws as they occurred.

Raillain wrote:​

10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.​

11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Do you get my point?

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
At the time that happened, the Torah had not yet been written. There was no written Law except the tablets of stone on which the ten commandments had been written (with the finger of God). Later, when Moses wrote the Law, he included this event into the written Law so this event can bee found in the written Law.

Numbers 9:
9 And the Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, 2 “Let the people of Israel keep the Passover at its appointed time. 3 On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall keep it at its appointed time; according to all its statutes and all its rules you shall keep it.” 4 So Moses told the people of Israel that they should keep the Passover. 5 And they kept the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the Lord commanded Moses, so the people of Israel did. 6 And there were certain men who were unclean through touching a dead body, so that they could not keep the Passover on that day, and they came before Moses and Aaron on that day. 7 And those men said to him, “We are unclean through touching a dead body. Why are we kept from bringing the Lord's offering at its appointed time among the people of Israel?” 8 And Moses said to them, “Wait, that I may hear what the Lord will command concerning you.”

9 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If any one of you or of your descendants is unclean through touching a dead body, or is on a long journey, he shall still keep the Passover to the Lord. 11 In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight they shall keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
See? The written Law didn't exist at that time. So Moses was entirely dependent on Yahweh giving him the Laws as they occurred.

Raillain wrote:​

10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.​

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Do you get my point?

Yes, I get your point. And it is moot in this discussion. The Pharisees did not write down "oral law". They accused the Sadducees because they did. They said they could not consult the book of decrees they (i.e. Sadducees) had written.
We find this accusation from the Pharisees themselves. When the temple was destroyed they abolished the book of decrees, all because it was not supposed to be written down.
They were supposed to find it in the scripture. Yet they said the whole purpose of "oral Torah" was to address law that was unclear in it's written context. What they were doing was going into the writings and the prophets for their teachings. Which was not at that time called law but traditions.
Can't you see how the Pharisees are usurping the authority of the priesthood here in this? Their traditions, only became "law" in the new Sanhedrin after the destruction of the priesthood.

See some excerpts here from Judaism 101
In speaking of the various functionaries

1. Here an admission diminishing of the "role" priesthood
2. The Rabbi's have taken that over.

"Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community."

Again in speaking of priests.

A brief overview
Notice the role of Rabbi......

• Rabbi: Teacher and decider of matters of religious law
• Chazzan: Cantor, who leads congregation in prayer
• Gabbai: Volunteer who assists with Torah readings
• Kohein: Descendant of Aaron, the original High Priest
• Levi: Descendant of the biblical Levites
• Rebbe: The leader of a Chasidic community
• Tzaddik: A righteous person with spiritual power

Contents
Rabbi
Chazzan
Gabbai
Kohein
Levi
Rebbe
Tzaddik
There are a number of different people who serve special roles in the Jewish community.

1. Repeats the "role" of the priesthood being diminished significantly
2. Then adds this diminishing is in favor of the Rabbis.

"After the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim diminished significantly in favor of the rabbis;"

Again in speaking of levi

Their "importance" drastically diminished with destruction of the temple.

"The entire tribe of Levi was set aside to perform certain duties in connection with the Temple. As with the Kohanim, their importance was drastically diminished with the destruction of the Temple, "

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Yes, I get your point. And it is moot in this discussion. The Pharisees did not write down "oral law". They accused the Sadducees because they did. They said they could not consult the book of decrees they (i.e. Sadducees) had written.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Of course, the Pharisees did not write down "oral law" that's why it was called "oral law." Please give me your quote from a Pharisee that accuses the Sadducees for writing down the oral law. You must remember I am skeptical of quoting certain Pharisees who were critical of the Sadducees and claimed they did x, y, and z And, even if they did indeed write down the oral law of the rabbis, they didn't believe it. I once wrote down some things that skeptics believed and at the time I wrote it down I didn't believe it. I just wanted it in writing so I could consult it if needed. But I need to see from you a quote from someone during that time period the Sadducees wrote down the oral law. Please provide the person's name that made this claim so I can evaluate it.

Here is something I want to read and consider but its too early to tell:

Sadducees - Livius

www.livius.org

We find this accusation from the Pharisees themselves. When the temple was destroyed they abolished the book of decrees, all because it was not supposed to be written down.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Just because the accusation is from the Pharisees themselves proves nothing. The Sadducees can't defend themselves. Scholars realize that one must be careful when quoting Pharisee views of the Sadducees. The Sadducees died out after the temple was destroyed. Any of their writings, which was based on the Torah, was called the "Book of Decrees" in Greek, and it did not survive the destruction of the Temple so all we have are the claims of the victors, the Pharisees. I do not find your evidence conclusive. Please provide a source for your claim that the Sadducees had a written record of their interpretations, and if they did, why does that change the fact that the rabbis held to an "oral law" which was held in higher esteem than the Torah?

They were supposed to find it in the scripture. Yet they said the whole purpose of "oral Torah" was to address law that was unclear in it's written context. What they were doing was going into the writings and the prophets for their teachings. Which was not at that time called law but traditions.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Please provide the accuser's name and evidence,

Can't you see how the Pharisees are usurping the authority of the priesthood here in this? Their traditions, only became "law" in the new Sanhedrin after the destruction of the priesthood.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Pharisees did indeed usurp the authority of the Sadducean method of reckoning the Omer and the celebration of Shavuot.

See some excerpts here from Judaism 101
In speaking of the various functionaries

1. Here an admission diminishing of the "role" priesthood
2. The Rabbi's have taken that over.

"Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community."

SABER TRUTH TIGER
"Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim (PRIESTS) has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community."

I agree with this. The rabbis became dominant after the destruction of the Temple while the Sadducees disappeared.

Again in speaking of priests.

A brief overview
Notice the role of Rabbi......

• Rabbi: Teacher and decider of matters of religious law
• Chazzan: Cantor, who leads congregation in prayer
• Gabbai: Volunteer who assists with Torah readings
• Kohein: Descendant of Aaron, the original High Priest
• Levi: Descendant of the biblical Levites
• Rebbe: The leader of a Chasidic community
• Tzaddik: A righteous person with spiritual power

Contents
Rabbi
Chazzan
Gabbai
Kohein
Levi
Rebbe
Tzaddik
There are a number of different people who serve special roles in the Jewish community.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
This is all helpful information. Thanks. The Priests in Jerusalem were in Aaron's seat, the Pharisees dominated the synagogues across Judea and Galilee and they sat in Moses seat, reading and teaching Moses every Sabbath. The Priests were descended from Aaron and not Moses.

1. Repeats the "role" of the priesthood being diminished significantly
2. Then adds this diminishing is in favor of the Rabbis.

"After the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim diminished significantly in favor of the rabbis;"

Again in speaking of levi

Their "importance" drastically diminished with destruction of the temple.

"The entire tribe of Levi was set aside to perform certain duties in connection with the Temple. As with the Kohanim, their importance was drastically diminished with the destruction of the Temple, "

SABER TRUTH TIGER
This is all good solid information. I will print it out and keep it for my own personal use. Plus, I will do further research on this when I am finished with something else that is on the fire.

 

[ralliann]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Of course, the Pharisees did not write down "oral law" that's why it was called "oral law." Please give me your quote from a Pharisee that accuses the Sadducees for writing down the oral law. You must remember I am skeptical of quoting certain Pharisees who were critical of the Sadducees and claimed they did x, y, and z And, even if they did indeed write down the oral law of the rabbis, they didn't believe it. I once wrote down some things that skeptics believed and at the time I wrote it down I didn't believe it. I just wanted it in writing so I could consult it if needed. But I need to see from you a quote from someone during that time period the Sadducees wrote down the oral law. Please provide the person's name that made this claim so I can evaluate it.

Here is something I want to read and consider but its too early to tell:

Sadducees - Livius

www.livius.org

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Just because the accusation is from the Pharisees themselves proves nothing. The Sadducees can't defend themselves. Scholars realize that one must be careful when quoting Pharisee views of the Sadducees. The Sadducees died out after the temple was destroyed. Any of their writings, which was based on the Torah, was called the "Book of Decrees" in Greek, and it did not survive the destruction of the Temple so all we have are the claims of the victors, the Pharisees. I do not find your evidence conclusive. Please provide a source for your claim that the Sadducees had a written record of their interpretations, and if they did, why does that change the fact that the rabbis held to an "oral law" which was held in higher esteem than the Torah?

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Please provide the accuser's name and evidence,

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Pharisees did indeed usurp the authority of the Sadducean method of reckoning the Omer and the celebration of Shavuot.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
"Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim (PRIESTS) has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community."

I agree with this. The rabbis became dominant after the destruction of the Temple while the Sadducees disappeared.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
This is all helpful information. Thanks. The Priests in Jerusalem were in Aaron's seat, the Pharisees dominated the synagogues across Judea and Galilee and they sat in Moses seat, reading and teaching Moses every Sabbath. The Priests were descended from Aaron and not Moses.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
This is all good solid information. I will print it out and keep it for my own personal use. Plus, I will do further research on this when I am finished with something else that is on the fire.

Believe what you will.

 

[ralliann]

Another excerpt from Judaism 101
"Conservative Jews usually use the word "synagogue," which is actually a Greek translation of Beit K'nesset and means "place of assembly" (it's related to the word "synod").

Reform Jews use the word "temple," because they consider every one of their meeting places to be equivalent to, or a replacement for, The Temple in Jerusalem.

The use of the word "temple" to describe modern houses of prayer offends some traditional Jews, because it trivializes the importance of The Temple (although in fairness, a synagogue was classically called a "little Temple"). The word "shul," on the other hand, is unfamiliar to many modern Jews. When in doubt, the word "synagogue" is the best bet, because everyone knows what it means, and I've never known anyone to be offended by it." end quote

What did Jesus call the house of prayer? His Father's house, the temple.
The synagogues were where the scriptures were read. They were places of study, and I believe they were lower local courts to try causes. The synagogue looks much different to day. they added that stuff to it. to say they "replaced the temple" is the first time I have heard them come out and just say it. I have been familiar with it described as "transferred".
As for Pharisaic tradtion, yes they did write it down, called it oral law. That is what the and Talmud is.
They were the ultimate authority IN ROME, over the Jew's religion after the destruction of the temple.

If the priesthood had received law from God's own mouth, why not write it down. It was judgement from God on specific situations. Why have a dispute get an answer from God on it and then have to do that over and over? Just like Moses did with the men that could not eat Passover. It settled the issue. So now you know why a synagogue can be called a temple. One near me is called Temple Bethel.