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Jesus: "THIS generation"...

Anna the Seeker

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I read someone's comment on this quote from Jesus outside these forums:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Matthew 24:34)
And someone took it literally, and thought that Jesus was mistaken... because then the rapture "should've happened" around the second century.

But then again the word this doesn't necessarily mean the generation of His time on Earth literally. It might as well be a reference word to what He earlier described, because of the list of things that He mentioned about the last generation just before the quote.

After all, no one knows the day or the hour...
 

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I don't believe in a literal "bones-from-the-grave" resurrection.

But that the death from which we are resurrected from is hadean death, or the spiritual death of separation from God.

When Christ returned back in A.D. 70 to judge Israel and dismantle the Old Sinai Covenant with its Aaronic priesthood, animal sacrifices, and other ceremonial laws, he received unto himself after preparing a place for them in heaven those that died in Christ as he promised in John 14:2-3.

See because no one ascended into heaven except him that descended down from heaven John 3:13.

And the apostles could not follow Jesus into heaven John 13:33,36.

Until Jesus returned a second time for salvation. Hebrews 8:28 & John 14:2-3.

Why didn't the apostles go straight into heaven? Because they were held in Paradise during the transition period between Old Covenant and New Covenant periods that is A.D. 30 - A.D. 70, until Christ would fulfill the promises to Israel of the resurrection/salvation when Christ returned to receive the apostles into heaven.

This all goes back to the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve did not lose immortality neither were they annihilated, they lost their fellowship with and were separated from God. They experienced spiritual death and spiritual separation from God.

Imagine for instant if Adam and Eve were truly immortal, if we think today is over populated, imagine if everyone since Noah was still walking this earth immortal?

Adam and Eve did not die instantaneously because they suffered spiritual death and separation from God not the loss of immortality.
 
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robycop3

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I don't believe in a literal "bones-from-the-grave" resurrection.

But that the death from which we are resurrected from is hadean death, or the spiritual death of separation from God.

When Christ returned back in A.D. 70 to judge Israel and dismantle the Old Sinai Covenant with its Aaronic priesthood, animal sacrifices, and other ceremonial laws, he received unto himself after preparing a place for them in heaven those that died in Christ as he promised in John 14:2-3.

See because no one ascended into heaven except him that descended down from heaven John 3:13.

And the apostles could not follow Jesus into heaven John 13:33,36.

Until Jesus returned a second time for salvation. Hebrews 8:28 & John 14:2-3.

Why didn't the apostles go straight into heaven? Because they were held in Paradise during the transition period between Old Covenant and New Covenant periods that is A.D. 30 - A.D. 70, until Christ would fulfill the promises to Israel of the resurrection/salvation when Christ returned to receive the apostles into heaven.

This all goes back to the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve did not lose immortality neither were they annihilated, they lost their fellowship with and were separated from God. They experienced spiritual death and spiritual separation from God.

Imagine for instant if Adam and Eve were truly immortal, if we think today is over populated, imagine if everyone since Noah was still walking this earth immortal?

Adam and Eve did not die instantaneously because they suffered spiritual death and separation from God not the loss of immortality.

Except for one little prob...JESUS HAS NOT YET RETURNED ! !

Jesus specifically warned against believing anyone who says He returned in secret, saying His return will be visible as lightning. And He prophesied about certain events that must occur before His return.

THEREFORE, I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.
 
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Except for one little prob...JESUS HAS NOT YET RETURNED ! !

Jesus specifically warned against believing anyone who says He returned in secret, saying His return will be visible as lightning. And He prophesied about certain events that must occur before His return.

THEREFORE, I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

You are misreading these texts:

Albert Barnes (1832)
"The coming of the Son of man. It has been doubted whether this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, or to the coming at the day of judgment. For the solution of this doubt, let it be remarked,

(1.) that those two events are the principal scenes in which our Lord said he would come, either in person or in judgment.
(2.) That the destruction of Jerusalem is described as his coming, his act, for their great crimes.
(3.) That these events--the judgment of Jerusalem and the final judgment --in many respects greatly resemble each other.
(4.) That they will bear, therefore, to be described in the same language. And,
(5.) therefore, that the same words often include both events, as properly described by them. The words, therefore, had doubtless a primary reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, but such an amplitude of meaning as also to express his coming to judgment.

Verse 28. Wheresoever, etc. The words in this verse are proverbial. Vultures and eagles easily ascertain where dead bodies are, and come to devour them. So with the Roman army. Jerusalem is like a dead and putrid corpse. Its life is gone, and it is ready to be devoured. The Roman armies will find it out, as the vultures do a dead carcass, and will come around it, to devour it.

This verse is connected with the preceding by the word "for," implying that this is a reason for what is said there, that the Son of man would certainly come to destroy the city, and that he would come suddenly. The meaning is, he would come by means of the Roman armies, as certainly, as suddenly, and as unexpectedly, as whole flocks of vultures and eagles, though unseen before, suddenly find their prey, see it at a great distance, and gather in multitudes around it. Travellers in the deserts of Arabia tell us that they sometimes witness a speck in the distant sky, which for a long time is scarcely visible. At length, it grows larger; it comes nearer; and they at last find that it is a vulture, that has from an immense distance seen a carcass lying on the sand. So keen is their vision, and so aptly does this represent the Roman armies, though at an immense distance, yet spying, as it were, Jerusalem, a putrid carcass, and hastening in multitudes to destroy it.

Verse 30. The sign of the Son of man. The evidence that Christ is coming to destroy the city of Jerusalem. It is not to be denied, however, that this description is applicable also to his coming at the day of judgment. The disciples had asked him, Matthew 24:3 what should be the sign of his coming, and of the end of the world. In his answer, he has reference to both events, and his language may be regarded as descriptive of both. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign or evidence of his coming was found in the fulfillment of these predictions.

All the tribes of the earth mourn. This is, either all the tribes or people of the land of Judea shall mourn at the great calamities coming upon them, or all the nations of the world shall wail when He comes to judgment. All the wicked shall mourn at the prospect of their doom, Revelation 1:7.

And they shall see the Son of man. The Lord Jesus coming to judgment. Probably this refers more directly to his coming at the last day, though it may also mean that the evidence of his coming to destroy Jerusalem shall then be seen.

With power. Power, manifest in the destruction of Jerusalem, by the wonders that preceded it, and by the overturning of the temple and city. "



Kenneth L. Gentry (1999)
"Jesus warns His followers that He will not appear bodily in the first-century judgment (vv. 23-26). Nevertheless, He will "come" in judgment like a destructive lightening bolt against Jerusalem (v.27). This coming, however, is a providential judgment coming, a Christ-directed judgment, rather than a miraculous, visible, bodily coming.

Nor is the coming as lightening in Matthew 24:27 a publicly visible, physical coming. Rather, it is a judgment coming against those who call down Jesus' blood upon them and their children (v.25). The Lord here speaks about His judgment coming against Jerusalem (see 23:37-24:2) as analogous to "the lightening [that] comes from the east, and flashes even to the west." As I begin to interpret the passage, remember that the local context demands this coming occur in "this generation" (24:34), having reference to the destruction of the temple.

The direction of this judgment coming of Christ in Matthew 24:27 apparently reflects the Roman armies marching toward Jerusalem from an easterly direction. Josephus' record of the march of the Roman armies through Israel shows they wreak havoc on Jerusalem by approaching it from the east." (The Great Tribulation: Past or Future?, MI: Kregel, 1999, p. 53-54; cf. Josephus' Wars 4:8:1; 4:9:1)
 
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NannaNae

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Mat 22:31
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Act 17:32
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.( to judgement)

Act 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Act 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Act 24:21
Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

1Co 15:12
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1Co 15:13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1Co 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Phl 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Heb 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Rom 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


I suspect that they are making a kind of error in translation somehow , maybe there is not a good way to distinguish the thoughts . but here is why I think that..


because Jesus says he is God of the living.. the living are living spirits and they only need new bodies.. not resurrected dead bodies..

the resurrection of the dead probably means those who will be resurrected to eternal judgement and destruction for what they are about to do , and they will choose that.

.

Mar 12:26
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mar 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Jesus is trying to get us to make a distinction between the dead and the living who have died.

So a resurrection of the dead not in christ is a very different thing than the resurrection away from the dead / from death .. even though they may appear to be happening at the same moment.
because he is God of the living and they don't need to be resurrected from the dead ..
they only need to be resurrected away from the dead and to a new body.

so I suspect that there is a resurrection of the dead and then their judgement .. and a resurrection away from the dead.. going on at the same exact time.

that is what I think.
 
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Albion

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I read someone's comment on this quote from Jesus outside these forums:

And someone took it literally, and thought that Jesus was mistaken... because then the rapture "should've happened" around the second century.

But then again the word this doesn't necessarily mean the generation of His time on Earth literally. It might as well be a reference word to what He earlier described, because of the list of things that He mentioned about the last generation just before the quote.

After all, no one knows the day or the hour...

The fact is that the early church did believe that Jesus was referring to the generation he was addressing.

Since their expectation was misplaced, we are left with two possible explanations. Either Jesus was referring to another generation when saying "this" (which, grammatically, is possible, and you sensed that) or else it DID happen--the age ended--without anyone noticing. That's the same problem the Jehovah's Witnesses inherited along with a theology that set the end of the world at 1914.

There are various explanations that can be used when someone asks why it was predicted that the end would happen at a certain time or not later than a certain time...but the world seems still to be here.

One is that it ended in a way other than we thought it would. Mystically, ended in principle, ended being the same as before. Something along those lines. OR else you could say that the end started ending at that time. These folks usually are big on saying "The time we have left is short!"
 
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robycop3

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You are misreading these texts:

Albert Barnes (1832)
"The coming of the Son of man. It has been doubted whether this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, or to the coming at the day of judgment. For the solution of this doubt, let it be remarked,

(1.) that those two events are the principal scenes in which our Lord said he would come, either in person or in judgment.
(2.) That the destruction of Jerusalem is described as his coming, his act, for their great crimes.
(3.) That these events--the judgment of Jerusalem and the final judgment --in many respects greatly resemble each other.
(4.) That they will bear, therefore, to be described in the same language. And,
(5.) therefore, that the same words often include both events, as properly described by them. The words, therefore, had doubtless a primary reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, but such an amplitude of meaning as also to express his coming to judgment.

Verse 28. Wheresoever, etc. The words in this verse are proverbial. Vultures and eagles easily ascertain where dead bodies are, and come to devour them. So with the Roman army. Jerusalem is like a dead and putrid corpse. Its life is gone, and it is ready to be devoured. The Roman armies will find it out, as the vultures do a dead carcass, and will come around it, to devour it.

This verse is connected with the preceding by the word "for," implying that this is a reason for what is said there, that the Son of man would certainly come to destroy the city, and that he would come suddenly. The meaning is, he would come by means of the Roman armies, as certainly, as suddenly, and as unexpectedly, as whole flocks of vultures and eagles, though unseen before, suddenly find their prey, see it at a great distance, and gather in multitudes around it. Travellers in the deserts of Arabia tell us that they sometimes witness a speck in the distant sky, which for a long time is scarcely visible. At length, it grows larger; it comes nearer; and they at last find that it is a vulture, that has from an immense distance seen a carcass lying on the sand. So keen is their vision, and so aptly does this represent the Roman armies, though at an immense distance, yet spying, as it were, Jerusalem, a putrid carcass, and hastening in multitudes to destroy it.

Verse 30. The sign of the Son of man. The evidence that Christ is coming to destroy the city of Jerusalem. It is not to be denied, however, that this description is applicable also to his coming at the day of judgment. The disciples had asked him, Matthew 24:3 what should be the sign of his coming, and of the end of the world. In his answer, he has reference to both events, and his language may be regarded as descriptive of both. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign or evidence of his coming was found in the fulfillment of these predictions.

All the tribes of the earth mourn. This is, either all the tribes or people of the land of Judea shall mourn at the great calamities coming upon them, or all the nations of the world shall wail when He comes to judgment. All the wicked shall mourn at the prospect of their doom, Revelation 1:7.

And they shall see the Son of man. The Lord Jesus coming to judgment. Probably this refers more directly to his coming at the last day, though it may also mean that the evidence of his coming to destroy Jerusalem shall then be seen.

With power. Power, manifest in the destruction of Jerusalem, by the wonders that preceded it, and by the overturning of the temple and city. "



Kenneth L. Gentry (1999)
"Jesus warns His followers that He will not appear bodily in the first-century judgment (vv. 23-26). Nevertheless, He will "come" in judgment like a destructive lightening bolt against Jerusalem (v.27). This coming, however, is a providential judgment coming, a Christ-directed judgment, rather than a miraculous, visible, bodily coming.

Nor is the coming as lightening in Matthew 24:27 a publicly visible, physical coming. Rather, it is a judgment coming against those who call down Jesus' blood upon them and their children (v.25). The Lord here speaks about His judgment coming against Jerusalem (see 23:37-24:2) as analogous to "the lightening [that] comes from the east, and flashes even to the west." As I begin to interpret the passage, remember that the local context demands this coming occur in "this generation" (24:34), having reference to the destruction of the temple.

The direction of this judgment coming of Christ in Matthew 24:27 apparently reflects the Roman armies marching toward Jerusalem from an easterly direction. Josephus' record of the march of the Roman armies through Israel shows they wreak havoc on Jerusalem by approaching it from the east." (The Great Tribulation: Past or Future?, MI: Kregel, 1999, p. 53-54; cf. Josephus' Wars 4:8:1; 4:9:1)

There are several events prophesied in Matthew 24 and in Luke 21 that have NOT yet occurred. Those that HAVE occurred are the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, & the flight of some Jews to Pella. What has NOT yet occurred are the coming of the "beast" and his false prophet, the "abomination of desolation" by this "beast", a worldwide great tribulation, brought on by the plagues of Revelation, a disturbance in the apparent motions of the celestial bodies, and the visible, glorious return of Jesus.

Now, Jesus warned specifically to not believe anyone who says He came in secret, so I DON'T.
 
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robycop3

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The fact is that the early church did believe that Jesus was referring to the generation he was addressing.

Since their expectation was misplaced, we are left with two possible explanations. Either Jesus was referring to another generation when saying "this" (which, grammatically, is possible, and you sensed that) or else it DID happen--the age ended--without anyone noticing. That's the same problem the Jehovah's Witnesses inherited along with a theology that set the end of the world at 1914.

There are various explanations that can be used when someone asks why it was predicted that the end would happen at a certain time or not later than a certain time...but the world seems still to be here.

One is that it ended in a way other than we thought it would. Mystically, ended in principle, ended being the same as before. Something along those lines. OR else you could say that the end started ending at that time. These folks usually are big on saying "The time we have left is short!"

thing is, these are PROFOUND events prophesied in Matt. 24 & Luke 21. had they already occurred, history would be replete with DOCUMENTATIONS of them! Thus, those who believe they've already occurred use two genres of excuses: the language of the prophecies is "symbolic" or "apocalyptic", or "they happened in the spirit world." Neither of those hippos will fly in the face of all the LITERALLY-FULFILLED biblical prophecies in history.
 
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There are several events prophesied in Matthew 24 and in Luke 21 that have NOT yet occurred. Those that HAVE occurred are the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, & the flight of some Jews to Pella. What has NOT yet occurred are the coming of the "beast" and his false prophet, the "abomination of desolation" by this "beast", a worldwide great tribulation, brought on by the plagues of Revelation, a disturbance in the apparent motions of the celestial bodies, and the visible, glorious return of Jesus.

Now, Jesus warned specifically to not believe anyone who says He came in secret, so I DON'T.

The Beast - Nero Caesar

The Abomination of Desolation - Destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70

The Celestial Bodies - Luminaries and Greats

The Glorious Return of Christ - "this generation" would not pass until ALL of these will be fulfilled.
 
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I read someone's comment on this quote from Jesus outside these forums:

And someone took it literally, and thought that Jesus was mistaken... because then the rapture "should've happened" around the second century.

But then again the word this doesn't necessarily mean the generation of His time on Earth literally. It might as well be a reference word to what He earlier described, because of the list of things that He mentioned about the last generation just before the quote.

After all, no one knows the day or the hour...

Anna,

I think a better interpretation is that Jesus was speaking of impending judgment upon Jerusalem, which actually took place in AD 70, and definitely within the lifetime of those with whom He was speaking at the time.

Peace
 
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Anna the Seeker

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This also makes me wonder.

Before these things come to pass, Israel should be rebuilt and the temple had to be destroyed. Though some people have taken that it has to be literally in that particular order and that the temple would have to be rebuilt as well. Israel does have a building plan for it though.

The destruction of the temple has already happened - in a few ways. Once the damage happened when Jesus died on the cross, and as far as I know it was God who did the damage, as a clear sign from Him.

So, do you think it that the temple should be rebuilt literally, or should the destruction of the temple be taken as a sign that already happened?
 
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robycop3

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The Beast - Nero Caesar

NEWP!

Nero had no miracle-working false prophet as a deputy, he was not a great military leader, did not commit the abomination of desolation, which Daniel prophesied will be done by the "beast"(Nero was never known to have been in Jerusalem at all.) and died in fronta witnesses by having his secretary stab him. He was NOT cast alive into gehenna as the beast will be.

The Abomination of Desolation - Destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70

NEWP!

The AOD will be when the beast sets up his statue in the new temple.

The Celestial Bodies - Luminaries and Greats

NEWP!

They are stars, planets, etc.

The Glorious Return of Christ - "this generation" would not pass until ALL of these will be fulfilled.

And the generation that sees all those events won't pass till all be accomplished.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I read someone's comment on this quote from Jesus outside these forums:

And someone took it literally, and thought that Jesus was mistaken... because then the rapture "should've happened" around the second century.

But then again the word this doesn't necessarily mean the generation of His time on Earth literally. It might as well be a reference word to what He earlier described, because of the list of things that He mentioned about the last generation just before the quote.

After all, no one knows the day or the hour...


research the feasts. there is one referred to , that the day could be either one of two days next to each other. the Jews all know about this. and no one knows ahead of time which day, the 1st or the 2nd, it will be. but they ALL know it will be one of those 2 days. they have known this ever since Yhvh said so.

gentiles just don't get let in on it.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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This also makes me wonder.

Before these things come to pass, Israel should be rebuilt and the temple had to be destroyed. Though some people have taken that it has to be literally in that particular order and that the temple would have to be rebuilt as well. Israel does have a building plan for it though.

The destruction of the temple has already happened - in a few ways. Once the damage happened when Jesus died on the cross, and as far as I know it was God who did the damage, as a clear sign from Him.

So, do you think it that the temple should be rebuilt literally, or should the destruction of the temple be taken as a sign that already happened?

as it happened, and as it is happening , both. simple, untwisted, undiluted, plain truth.
 
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robycop3

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This also makes me wonder.

Before these things come to pass, Israel should be rebuilt and the temple had to be destroyed. Though some people have taken that it has to be literally in that particular order and that the temple would have to be rebuilt as well. Israel does have a building plan for it though.

The destruction of the temple has already happened - in a few ways. Once the damage happened when Jesus died on the cross, and as far as I know it was God who did the damage, as a clear sign from Him.

So, do you think it that the temple should be rebuilt literally, or should the destruction of the temple be taken as a sign that already happened?

The only events of the Olivet Discourse that've come to pass are the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, and the flight of some Jews to Pella. And since these events happened literally, there's absolutely NO reason to believe the others won't happen literally as well.

And the Jews not only have a plan to build a new temple, they already have the materials in storage. And they've been breeding animals such as red heifers to be used in their rites. The Orthodox Jews intend to restore the Old Covenant observances & ceremonies as part of their worship. The only holdup now is timing. A significant discovery is that the old temple didn't occupy the exact spot where the Dome of the Rock now sits. When the Jews believe they can erect a new temple without causing an all-out war with the Moslems, they'll do so very quickly.
 
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robycop3

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Anna,

I think a better interpretation is that Jesus was speaking of impending judgment upon Jerusalem, which actually took place in AD 70, and definitely within the lifetime of those with whom He was speaking at the time.

Peace

...Except it didn't happen.
 
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NEWP!

Nero had no miracle-working false prophet as a deputy, he was not a great military leader, did not commit the abomination of desolation, which Daniel prophesied will be done by the "beast"(Nero was never known to have been in Jerusalem at all.) and died in fronta witnesses by having his secretary stab him. He was NOT cast alive into gehenna as the beast will be.



NEWP!

The AOD will be when the beast sets up his statue in the new temple.



NEWP!

They are stars, planets, etc.



And the generation that sees all those events won't pass till all be accomplished.

Prophetic phraseology is made of symbolism and hyberbole.

Take for instance, if we read that stars and planets are literally destroyed. Well, guess what, God has destroyed the stars and the planets several times over. Yet, why are we still here?

Read these passages:

·Isaiah 13:10, 13—judgment of Babylon (539 B.C.)
·Isaiah 34:4—judgment of Edom (late 6th century B.C.)
·Ezekiel 32:7—judgment of Egypt (568 B.C.)
·Nahum 1:5—judgment of Nineveh (612 B.C.)
·Joel 2:10—judgment of Judah (586 B.C.)
·Amos 8:9—judgment of the northern kingdom (722 B.C.)
 
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