Jesus suffered?

[Guyfoo]

Yeah Jesus suffered, but no more than a lot people have suffered, right?
I mean think about it. As I type millions are starving to death. Also what about terminally ill patients who’s suffering could go on for months. (I think it was Julia Sweeney that said Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins) So what was so special/honourable about the way Jesus suffered and was really worse than what a lot of people have gone through?

(Sorry if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it)

 

[ebia]

Yeah Jesus suffered, but no more than a lot people have suffered, right?
I mean think about it. As I type millions are starving to death. Also what about terminally ill patients who’s suffering could go on for months. (I think it was Julia Sweeney that said Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins) So what was so special/honourable about the way Jesus suffered and was really worse than what a lot of people have gone through?

(Sorry if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it)

You're quite right that to suggest Jesus suffering is some order of magnitude worse than every experienced by anyone else demeans the immense suffering that goes on around the world.

What is significant about Jesus suffering is that he voluntarily allows evil to do its worst to him, shares in that suffering of the world, in a representative manner, and comes through the other side in resurrection. Evil has done it's worst - and failed. As Messiah he is the representative annointed King of Israel, Israel represents all humanity, and humanity represents all creation.

 

[cantata]

Lots of people have crucified and killed in all sorts of other horrible ways; the point, as I understand it, is that Jesus’ physical suffering is supposed to be an immediate and arresting symbol of his spiritual suffering, which was of an order of magnitude greater than any spiritual suffering that any other human being has experienced before or since.

Or something?

 

[Tharumza]

Using this excuse, we should be worshipping my uncle. He was captured by the Vietcong, was tortured for eight years rather than divulging the secrets he knew, and was eventually released. The stories he has told us make Jesus' ordeal seem like going to ride a roller coaster then eating some ice cream.

 

[Zebra1552]

Yeah Jesus suffered, but no more than a lot people have suffered, right?
I mean think about it. As I type millions are starving to death. Also what about terminally ill patients who’s suffering could go on for months. (I think it was Julia Sweeney that said Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins) So what was so special/honourable about the way Jesus suffered and was really worse than what a lot of people have gone through?

(Sorry if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it)

The reason Jesus died and that he was sinless made the difference between life and death for many. He bore the full weight of our sins so we can live. Which brings you to your next question: Why would God set things up like that? And that brings me back to the OT. Sin is serious business. We can be told and shown this many times, but still we don't get it. Even I don't get how serious it is.

 

[StarCannon]

<staff edit>

this is also a god that tends to create suffering in his wake, perhaps as a result of people sympathizing too much his trials and tribulations on the cross? I mean, for suffering 2000 years ago that doesn't seem very much. Perhaps if he was constantly being put to the Wheel... well, then MAYbe.

 

[b&wpac4]

<staff edit>

A lot of the ideas in the Bible have to do with treating other people correctly. There are stories, especially in the earlier books, that seem bad on the surface, but I do not believe these are supposed to be literal histories of events but stories designed to teach. You would need to look deeper than the text to see the messages.

 

[Penumbra]

You're quite right that to suggest Jesus suffering is some order of magnitude worse than every experienced by anyone else demeans the immense suffering that goes on around the world.

What is significant about Jesus suffering is that he voluntarily allows evil to do its worst to him, shares in that suffering of the world, in a representative manner, and comes through the other side in resurrection. Evil has done it's worst - and failed. As Messiah he is the representative annointed King of Israel, Israel represents all humanity, and humanity represents all creation.

Yes, what it comes down to is not that Jesus suffered more than others, but simply that he is powerful. As the story goes, he voluntarily suffered, but then again, so do many mortals. The only difference is that he is divine.

The path to peace has been shown, in most cases throughout history, to be the wielder of the bigger weapons. It even comes through in our religions. In religious stories, the good side is stronger and wins.

-Lyn

 

[ebia]

<staff edit>

<staff edit>

this is also a god that tends to create suffering in his wake, perhaps as a result of people sympathizing too much his trials and tribulations on the cross? I mean, for suffering 2000 years ago that doesn't seem very much. Perhaps if he was constantly being put to the Wheel... well, then MAYbe.

1. Jesus suffering, death and resurrection is at least as much about him being human as being divine if not more so.
2. The point is not for him to suffer more than any single human being, but for his suffering and death and resurrection to be representative. Unless you've begun to grasp that representative idea then one isn't talking about the biblical picture. The whole point of a king of Israel (including the Messianic King) is that he represents his people. And the whole point of Israel is to represent all humanity. And the whole point of humanity is to represent all creation.

 

[ebia]

Using this excuse, we should be worshipping my uncle. He was captured by the Vietcong, was tortured for eight years rather than divulging the secrets he knew, and was eventually released. The stories he has told us make Jesus' ordeal seem like going to ride a roller coaster then eating some ice cream.

Did he die? Did he rises again. And did he come to do that by challenging the symbolic structures of evil in the world? And did he do all of that as the one God annointed to represent all humanity?

There is no logic that says Jesus was tortured a lot therefore he is the divine saviour. It's a straw-man.

 

[TerranceL]

What is significant about Jesus suffering is that he voluntarily allows evil to do its worst to him

I've always found this theory curious.

If he willingly allowed this to happen he wouldn't have been hiding and judas wouldn't have had to betrayed him.

 

[TerranceL]

Did he die? Did he rises again. And did he come to do that by challenging the symbolic structures of evil in the world? And did he do all of that as the one God annointed to represent all humanity?

Probably not but then again there is no evidence that anybody ever has.

 

[ebia]

Probably not but then again there is no evidence that anybody ever has.

That's not the point at issue though. Christians regard Jesus as saviour precisely because of those things - not simply because he suffered and even died. Indeed without the resurrection the suffering and death would have been the ultimate proof that he was no more than a martyr if that. Second Temple expectation was not that the messiah would suffer, and certainly not that he would die, despite Isaiah.

 

[ebia]

I've always found this theory curious.

I'm not sure why you would call that a theory when most of the New Testament is predicated on it. "Willingly" of course not in the sense that he wants it to happen, nor that he goes directly looking for it to happen. That would defeat the purpose. But willingly in the sense of understanding that it will happen if he does the other things he is called to do, not compromising so as to avoid it, not evading it when the time comes, and understanding at least in some sense that it is necessary.

If he willingly allowed this to happen he wouldn't have been hiding and judas wouldn't have had to betrayed him.

I wouldn't call wandering about in a garden 'hiding' in any meaningful sense.

 

[Archer93]

<staff edit>

You beat me to it in referring to Odin and Prometheus! Letters and fire- nice, practical things.
Flogging and crucifixion are horrendous- but the theives either side of him suffered more on their crosses. He was dead by the time the Romans came round to break the legs to speed up the process.
Just sayin'....

 

[Tharumza]

Did he die? Did he rises again. And did he come to do that by challenging the symbolic structures of evil in the world? And did he do all of that as the one God annointed to represent all humanity?

There is no logic that says Jesus was tortured a lot therefore he is the divine saviour. It's a straw-man.

Nope, he was stronger than your "savior". He kept living. The existance of a God of any sort is still open to speculation, therefore, you can't say that Jesus was a God either.

That is the logic that Christians make it. "He suffered and DIED for your sins!"

Well guess what, my uncle suffered and LIVED for my freedoms.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Yeah Jesus suffered, but no more than a lot people have suffered, right?
I mean think about it. As I type millions are starving to death. Also what about terminally ill patients who’s suffering could go on for months. (I think it was Julia Sweeney that said Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins) So what was so special/honourable about the way Jesus suffered and was really worse than what a lot of people have gone through?

It isn't about the suffering, it's about His death. Death is the penalty for sin. Because Christ did not sin, He did not deserve death.

 

[MoonLancer]

Jesus doomed a tree because it had no fuit

No sin? really?

 

[Bro_Sam]

Jesus doomed a tree because it had no fuit

No sin? really?

That's not a sin. Jesus created the tree and so it's His to do whatever He wants with.

 

[MoonLancer]

is this an argument for child molestation as well? parents create there children, does this mean they can do anything they want to them?