Jesus Shows Us How to Read the OT

[christianbeginning]

My contention:
The Old Testament is best viewed allegorically and attempts to describe the nature of God.

A few points:
1) The universe was not created in 6 24 hour periods.
2) Adam and Eve were not the first humans.

These and other stories in the OT are allegories showing the nature of God.

About Jesus:
1) Fulfills the OT prophecies.
2) He teaches using allegories.
3) He teaches using verses from the OT.

Thus, he shows us the way to read the OT.

Conclusion: Theologically, the OT is allegorical not literal.
Corollary: It is wrong to base Christian doctrine on a literal interpretation of the OT

Note: Starting this thread because the other failed to express properly.

 

[adam332]

heresy

 

[bjh]

My contention:
The Old Testament is best viewed allegorically and attempts to describe the nature of God.

A few points:
1) The universe was not created in 6 24 hour periods.
2) Adam and Eve were not the first humans.

These and other stories in the OT are allegories showing the nature of God.

About Jesus:
1) Fulfills the OT prophecies.
2) He teaches using allegories.
3) He teaches using verses from the OT.

Thus, he shows us the way to read the OT.

Conclusion: Theologically, the OT is allegorical not literal.
Corollary: It is wrong to base Christian doctrine on a literal interpretation of the OT

Note: Starting this thread because the other failed to express properly.

Interesting thoughts, do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this your thoughts?

Obviously Jesus taught the actual existence of Abel, Jonah, Daniel, Zechariah, and others. Luke 11:51; Matt 24:15; Matt 12:39-41.

We have recorded genealogies that go back to Abraham (Matthew 1) and Adam (Luke 3), but not further than Adam (except to God).

 

[Rafael]

Why is God always limited to man's understanding? It would be so nice to confine Him to our little box like minds, instead of believing He is able to do as He says and so much more than we can imagine. When we can create life or explain a few more of the processes of creation better than we presently do, then we can start to possibly put limitations on God's abilities to create and critique them. I have never ceased to be amazed at man's pride to be able to just look around at the creation of God and themselves and then proclaim God can't. Well, I was that way too, a while back, so I figure more life and more wisdom, both from God, helps change the mind.

 

[adam332]

God specifically told us when describing he week of creation that it was the first day, the second day, etc...

If that alone was the case there might be some room for additional speculation. But he clearly defines the length of the day as well....sunset to sunset. He is the one who spun the planets into orbit an caused the earth to rotate a full revolution in 24hrs. He not only calls it a day and defines it as a day...but he continues with his reference of the word day as well as the length for a day throughout both the OT and the NT. A day is a day, period. He left no room for such manipulation of His word.

For those who like to stretch these days into a thousand years each...he made sure that you can't by specifically telling us the length of the creation days...one evening and one morning...sunset to sunset. The subject of a thousand yrs for a day is of no value here because of his very specific wording and descriptions during creation. If anyone cares to go into the 1000yrs=day subject I will be happy to join in on it's own thread. i am not trying to place God in my box...I'm just trying to make sure these scriptural terrorists don't blow the box up.

 

[Crazy Liz]

My contention:
The Old Testament is best viewed allegorically and attempts to describe the nature of God.

A few points:
1) The universe was not created in 6 24 hour periods.
2) Adam and Eve were not the first humans.

These and other stories in the OT are allegories showing the nature of God.

About Jesus:
1) Fulfills the OT prophecies.
2) He teaches using allegories.
3) He teaches using verses from the OT.

Thus, he shows us the way to read the OT.

This doesn't follow. Jesus' use of allegories- I think you must be referring mostly to his parables - seldom, if ever, directly refers to the OT. I don't think most of them even allude to the OT, although some of them, like the Good Samaritan, do.

Conclusion: Theologically, the OT is allegorical not literal.
Corollary: It is wrong to base Christian doctrine on a literal interpretation of the OT

I think this conclusion is a non-sequitur, although I think you are onto something in paying more attention to how Jesus used the OT.

I think it's important to understand how Jesus used the OT, and use this information to inform our own interpretation of the OT. I disagree with some of your conclusions.

Let me challenge you to take some time to study this more thoroughly. Read each of the gospels in a single sitting. Mark should take you less than an hour to read, even if you read slowly. The others are a bit longer, but you can do it. Pay attention to how Jesus uses or refers to the OT scriptures in each gospel. You might want to highlight each OT reference you find so you can look them up later, but don't spend much time looking at details. Just get the "big picture."

After that, look up the OT passages Jesus refers to. Also, you will find many of his references to the OT contrast a traditional interpretation with a new one. Pay attention to these.

I really don't think the main thing you will notice is an allegorical interpretation, but I think you will gain some knowledge that will be helpful.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

heresy

Throwning out an accusation like this is not really a response to the OP. We need to expand a bit and tell in a non-personal way why the OP is not in keeping with correct doctrine. I am sure you have some legitimate things to share. Please do!

 

[G4m]

My contention:
The Old Testament is best viewed allegorically and attempts to describe the nature of God.

A few points:
1) The universe was not created in 6 24 hour periods.
2) Adam and Eve were not the first humans.

These and other stories in the OT are allegories showing the nature of God.

About Jesus:
1) Fulfills the OT prophecies.
2) He teaches using allegories.
3) He teaches using verses from the OT.

Thus, he shows us the way to read the OT.

Conclusion: Theologically, the OT is allegorical not literal.
Corollary: It is wrong to base Christian doctrine on a literal interpretation of the OT

Note: Starting this thread because the other failed to express properly.

Excellent points. However, if adam were not the first (just an allegory) then would Christ be the same (just an allegory)?

1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Roald]

I do not believe that the Creation account is necessarily meant to be taken literally, though I would have no problem if it turned out to be literally true. Was man created before animals, or were animals created before man? Reading Genesis would give you two different answers.

 

[christianbeginning]

Obviously Jesus taught the actual existence of Abel, Jonah, Daniel, Zechariah, and others. Luke 11:51; Matt 24:15; Matt 12:39-41.

This only shows Jesus referring to OT prophets. This does not mean that he does not regard the OT as allegory.

Matt 24:15
When ye therefore shall se the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth let him understand).

Luke 11:51
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple; verily I say unto you, It shall be requird of this generation.

The allegory point of view is supported by verses you pointed out (see below).

Matt 12:39-41
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgement with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The story of Jonas is clearly an allegory - he was not literally in the belly of an actual whale. Look at what Jesus says: "so shall the Son of Man be <b>three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH</b>.

We know that Jesus spend three days and nights in a cave probably no more than a few feet in depth, certainly not to be taken literally as THE heart of the earth - it was just a small cave near the surface of the earth.

Here, Jesus clearly is speaking symbolically, and understands that the Jonas story is symbolic also.

Why is God always limited to man's understanding? It would be so nice to confine Him to our little box like minds, instead of believing He is able to do as He says and so much more than we can imagine. When we can create life or explain a few more of the processes of creation better than we presently do, then we can start to possibly put limitations on God's abilities to create and critique them. I have never ceased to be amazed at man's pride to be able to just look around at the creation of God and themselves and then proclaim God can't. Well, I was that way too, a while back, so I figure more life and more wisdom, both from God, helps change the mind.

How does saying that the OT is symbolic and allegorical putting limits on God (or relate to what you posted)? What it shows is the limited ability of man to understand God - hence the allegorical stories to help us understand Him.

Ofcourse God can do as He says - but don't you think its possible that man can misunderstand what it is God is saying? Or that man could only understand what He actually did with simple stories?

Is it really reasonable to believe that an ancient Jewish person was listening to how God created the universe and the person understood it perfectly and set out to write it?

Are you saying all the toil and sacrifice of our ancestors to understand and master the world were all fruitless, stupid attempts?

I would say that it is safe to say that faith should never contradict reason.

God specifically told us when describing he week of creation that it was the first day, the second day, etc...

My point is that God did not say that at all...

Consider what a day infact is, and then relate that to the creation story, and you will see that it is not a reasonable proposition.

The creation story helps us understand God as a Creator - as opposed to a smaller (some pagan) Gods who simply exists but cannot create.



Hi Crazy Liz - I've read it cover to cover. Jesus teaches - as you mentioned - using parables. In my view, Jesus never takes anything but prophecies as being literal (meaning except that someone actually had a prophecy), and even those Jesus recognizes as being full of symbols and relates the symbolism in the OT prophecies to either Himself or his reference frame.

Excellent points. However, if adam were not the first (just an allegory) then would Christ be the same (just an allegory)?

1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Good point and you just made my case stronger - yes, Jesus is an allegory. Consider what an allegory is (lets us online dictionary.com's definition).

1. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.


Jesus represents one facet of God and infact helps us understand God. But would it be correct to say that God is a mortal, flesh and blood being, that can get hungry and thirsty, and dirty, and be brutalized and killed?

God (or one facet of God if you prefer) took on a human form (Jesus) to help us understand Him.

God taught using a symbolic representation of Himself (Jesus).

God represented an abstract concept (God) via a figure (Jesus) and events (the Life of Jesus), just like the definition says.

So, Jesus, infact, is an allegorical representation of God.

 

[G4m]

Good point and you just made my case stronger - yes, Jesus is an allegory. Consider what an allegory is (lets us online dictionary.com's definition).

1. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.


Jesus represents one facet of God and infact helps us understand God. But would it be correct to say that God is a mortal, flesh and blood being, that can get hungry and thirsty, and dirty, and be brutalized and killed?

God (or one facet of God if you prefer) took on a human form (Jesus) to help us understand Him.

God taught using a symbolic representation of Himself (Jesus).

God represented an abstract concept (God) via a figure (Jesus) and events (the Life of Jesus), just like the definition says.

So, Jesus, infact, is an allegorical representation of God.

Yeah, I see your point now! And I believe what you've touched on is core to understanding the bible. Its full of allegories really and that's how God decided to communicate to us!

Proverbs 1
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance-
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

Psalm 78
1 O my people, hear my teaching;
listen to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter hidden things, things from of old-
3 what we have heard and known,
what our fathers have told us.

Matthew 13
35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

Matthew 13
34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

2) Adam and Eve were not the first humans.

But I can't negate from fact that Adam and Eve were the first (symbolic yes) of all, just like the fact that Jesus was also the first born from the dead (symbolic of those born after death):

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1
18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.


There is allegory used everywhere but God also uses reality or makes things happen to show these allegories, but this doesn't negate from the reality of these things happening. Hosea is an excellent example:

Hosea 1
1 The word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and during the reign of Jeroboam son of Jehoash king of Israel:
2 When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, "Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery in departing from the LORD ." 3 So he married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.
4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5 In that day I will break Israel's bow in the Valley of Jezreel."
6 Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call her Lo-Ruhamah, for I will no longer show love to the house of Israel, that I should at all forgive them. 7 Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them-not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the LORD their God."
8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the LORD said, "Call him Lo-Ammi, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.
10 "Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' 11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.


But, it's quite true we will get into trouble when we only look at the literal. We need to ask God what it means, what is the symbology He's using, what is the hidden message, what is He really telling us?

Mark 4
34He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.


Thank you for starting this thread christianbeginning, its already helping me!

 

[bjh]

So, Jesus, infact, is an allegorical representation of God.

Christian Beginning,
If, as you say in your post, "Jesus is an Allegory" then this whole discussion is in the wrong place.

However, if we begin with the premise that Jesus is an allegory (although I believe that premise to be false), it is indeed a short step to make the Old Testament an Allegory, and indeed the whole New Testament as well.

Of course, it stands to reason that we must then throw out the idea that anything in the Bible can be taken at face value - even the idea that Jesus really spent three days and three nights in a cave (which, for some reason, you seem to accept without question).

We must then throw out the idea that any of it is fact, even though throughout the ages the Bible has been proven true, time and time again.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Hi Crazy Liz - I've read it cover to cover. Jesus teaches - as you mentioned - using parables. In my view, Jesus never takes anything but prophecies as being literal (meaning except that someone actually had a prophecy), and even those Jesus recognizes as being full of symbols and relates the symbolism in the OT prophecies to either Himself or his reference frame.

I don't think this establishes that Jesus understood the entire OT as symbolc or allegorical.

He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
*** "The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
*******because he has anointed me
*******to preach good news to the poor.
***He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
*******and recovery of sight for the blind,
***to release the oppressed,
******* to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
--Luke 4:16-22

I agree with you that his discussion of such OT personages as Adam, Enoch and Job don't establish whether he thinks of them a historical or not. However, Jesus also refers to the OT Law. Jesus gives the Law a different interpretation than that of the Pharisees, but I don't think allegorical would be an accurate word to describe Jesus' interpretation of the Law.

Good point and you just made my case stronger - yes, Jesus is an allegory. Consider what an allegory is (lets us online dictionary.com's definition).

1. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.


Jesus represents one facet of God and infact helps us understand God. But would it be correct to say that God is a mortal, flesh and blood being, that can get hungry and thirsty, and dirty, and be brutalized and killed?

God (or one facet of God if you prefer) took on a human form (Jesus) to help us understand Him.

God taught using a symbolic representation of Himself (Jesus).

God represented an abstract concept (God) via a figure (Jesus) and events (the Life of Jesus), just like the definition says.

God is an abstract concept?????

So, Jesus, infact, is an allegorical representation of God.

So an actual, historical human being can be an allegory? If this is your definition, then we have nothing to argue about, since Adam, Enoch, Job, et. al. could similarly be both historical and allegorical. I don't think you could find any Christian who would argue with that.

 

[christianbeginning]

Thanks for your posts - glad not to be called a heritic!

Let me clarify what I mean:

About the OT:
1) It contains actual history &#8211; not dispute here.
2) It has many stories that are symbolic in nature (Jonas in the whalet, Adam and Eve, etc).

My point is that Jesus recognized it in that way also. He knew that it contained actual historical information, and He knew that certain stories where symbolic.

When I say Jesus is an allegory, that is not to say that He did not exist on earth. What the idea of &#8220;Jesus as an allegory&#8221; refers to is that God used a symbolic representation of Himself (or one facet of Himself) - in this case the man known as Jesus &#8211; to teach us.

My guiding principle is that faith should never contradict reason.

The OT stories contradict reason in my view &#8211; if they are true then what we know of the physical world is false. Nothing in the NT, on the other hand, contradicts reason. The crux of the NT is that Jesus was a human incarnation of God (or a facet of God).

The OT stories require us to disregard what reason tells us and alter what we know of the physical world.
The NT stories do not alter the fabric of reality &#8211; they do not have a direct impact on the PHYSICS of the real world. If we accept Jesus as the Son of God (a physical representation of something far too abstract for a mortal mind to understand, i.e., God), then the miracles that surrounded His life do not go against reason.

You see, Jesus can be truly the Son of God and have performed all the miracles in the NT and not violate the known physical laws. The OT, on the other hand, requires that the physical laws that we know of are false.

I see the Old Testament in the following ways:

Academically -
1) As a work of historical importance
2) As a work of cultural importance

Philosophically -
1) As a work of philosophical importance

Ethically & Morally -
1) As an important work of ethical and moral thought

Theologically -
1) Prophecies pertaining to the Savior
Corollary -
a) Gives insight into the nature of God
I) God as Creator
II) God as a personal God - involved
III) God as a sensitive God - one who is involved AND cares


All facets of God being taught in a symbolic fashion.

So is this heretical?

 

[1John5:3]

Adam, Noah, Jonah... literal?

The New Testament speaks:

literally of Adam
Luke 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam {became} a life-giving spirit.
1 Tim 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, {and} then Eve.
1 Tim 2:14 And {it was} not Adam {who} was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Jude 1:14 ¶ {It was} also about these men {that} Enoch, {in} the seventh {generation} from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

literally of Jonah
Matt 12:39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and {yet} no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
Matt 12:40 for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matt 12:41 "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
Matt 16:4 "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them and went away.
Luke 11:29 ¶ As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and {yet} no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
Luke 11:30 "For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.
Luke 11:32 "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

literally of Noah
Matt 24:37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
Matt 24:38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Luke 3:36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
Luke 17:26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luke 17:27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned {by God} about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
2 Pet 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

 

[1John5:3]

Jesus Shows Us How to Read the OT

Matt 4:3 And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
Matt 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"
Matt 4:5 ¶ Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,
Matt 4:6 and *said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON {their} HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"
Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"
Matt 4:8 ¶ Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
Matt 4:9 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."
Matt 4:10 Then Jesus *said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"
Matt 4:11 Then the devil *left Him; and behold, angels came and {began} to minister to Him.

 

[FatherApe]

Isn't assigning as 'allegory', the Old Testament accounts we find hard to defend, just taking an easy way out? Is 'taking an easy way out' too polite a term for the potential extent of the process?

To put it in perspective, do you look forward to the (perhaps allegorical???) judgement day when you'll stand before God and justify why you felt compelled to explain away his power to make the OT more believable from a human perspective?

For the record, I too have a hard time accepting the literal telling of the creation story, especially in light of the fossil record and our scientific take on the 'evidence' we see from antiquity. And.. to further complicate matters, when Cain killed Abel and was forced to wander the earth in Genesis 4:13, he expresses his fear that, "I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth and whoever finds me will kill me". At that point in the lineage of mankind, who was he afraid of?

Finally, perhaps there's another way we can approach the tough issues without rationalizing away the veracity of the OT. We know satan and a third of the angels from heaven have run amok - with power - on earth since before creation. I'm sure they revel in the complexities which lead us to doubt the literal telling of the OT. Do you suppose it's possible they've had a hand in the 'evidence' which places the Bible in question?

 

[Roald]

Many will say that viewing parts of the OT as allegory is a liberal idea. However, this has been done for many, many centuries. You see this view when reading the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I believe that I view the OT much as the earliest Christians did--as a myth that explains important religious truths.

(Please don't get upset about the word myth until you look up its definition.)

 

[christianbeginning]

Hi FatherApe - short reply to your post:

you said:

...on earth since before creation

See the problem with being literal with these things...
there was no earth before creation! thats the whole point of the creation story isn't it, how the earth was created (or universe if you take a more modern and expansive view)?

will reply to other parts when I get the chance.

agreed we are Roald, I think thats how the ancients saw it too.

 

[christianbeginning]

Hi 1John5:3 - thank you for your posts. However, they don't prove or show that anything at all should be taken literally.

Isn't assigning as 'allegory', the Old Testament accounts we find hard to defend, just taking an easy way out? Is 'taking an easy way out' too polite a term for the potential extent of the process?

No, to me taking everything literally and at face value seems the easy way out - its much harder to think about these things.

To put it in perspective, do you look forward to the (perhaps allegorical???) judgement day when you'll stand before God and justify why you felt compelled to explain away his power to make the OT more believable from a human perspective?

Its not productive to this discussion to get puffed up and act so self righteous. Anyway, explaining away his power is not what is being done at all. The OT stories, if literal, show the acts of a powerful being but not really all that powerful when we consider how much more powerful God has to be to have created the universe as described by our scientists.

For the record, I too have a hard time accepting the literal telling of the creation story, especially in light of the fossil record and our scientific take on the 'evidence' we see from antiquity. And.. to further complicate matters, when Cain killed Abel and was forced to wander the earth in Genesis 4:13, he expresses his fear that, "I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth and whoever finds me will kill me". At that point in the lineage of mankind, who was he afraid of?

So we agree on the above - you are applying the principle that faith should not contradict reason.

We know satan and a third of the angels from heaven have run amok - with power - on earth since before creation.

I'd be curious to know how you make sense of the above sentence. How can anything at all run amok if the place in which it is running amok has not yet been created and does not exist?

Can you run for president of The Republic of Zorca Land if the place and the office don't yet exist?

Do you suppose it's possible they've had a hand in the 'evidence' which places the Bible in question?

No, I don't think they are that smart. Maybe what they did was speak falsehoods to the ancients so that the true nature of God and his creation and creative powers were hidden from us. Maybe they are trying to thwart man's progress and acquisition of knowledge of this world by leading us astray with simple minded stories about the creation of the universe and literal interpretions of ancient manuscripts written by people who would today be baffled by the workings of this website.

The entire Bible is full of symbolism. What do you suppose Jesus was trying to tell us each time he uttered "Let him who has eyes, see." and "Let him who has ears, hear." Jesus was telling us that if you look deeper and listen more carefully, the truth will be revealed.