Jesus says no one can pluck/snatch us out of His & The Father's hand. Does that include yourself?

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Sorry, brother, I am not seeing it.
If we are sealed by God's Holy Spirit unto the day of Redemption...
how do we break The King's seal? (Ephesians 4:30)
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19‭-‬20 NKJV

-Who is James talking to?
Brethren

-Who is "anyone among you"?
Other brethren

-Who are brethren?
The elect (Matthew 12:48-50)

So if the brethren (elect) are unable to loose their salvation, why would their souls need "saving from death"? If you follow this scripture logically, one can only conclude that the soul of the brethren is at risk of death.
 
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Why are you just repeating yourself? If God has elected me for service, then I have been ELECTED, period.

It seems you think there are more than just election to service. What would that be?
Read your post on #276. You brought it up first.
 
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Life and death are mentioned here.
This sin leading to death is simply physical death, here is the same idea as in James 5:19-20.

Life is zōē in the greek, and can mean physical life or spiritual life.

a. is the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
b. of the absolute fullness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature


And death here is 'thanatos'

John says 'we know that we are of God'
And 'whoever is born of God does not sin'

The sins done in the body will be judged, but the new spirit created in Christ, see it dwells with Christ and does not sin and the evil one cannot touch that spirit, it has eternal life with Christ. Nowhere here does John teach a separation from Christ has occurred for this one who sinned.
People continually forget about the new man and the old man present inside all saved persons. It is the old man who sins with his body of flesh interacting with this world. The new creation alive spirit, the new man interacts with the Holy Spirit and does not sin.

1 John 5:16-19New King James Version (NKJV)
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Knowing the True—Rejecting the False
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
Once again, how does a soul experience a "physical death". Are you suggesting that the soul is a physical part of our bodies? Where is it located? Is it literally found in the heart next to the aorta? Or is it a section of the brain?
 
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sdowney717

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You are trying too hard. Why and how would a soul be at risk of a physical death over a spiritual death?
Don't you think a soul and a spirit are different things?
We read this about spirit
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1 Corinthians 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Scripture makes a distinction, so why don't you?
Just take the word 'soul' and stick it into verses instead of 'spirit' idea?
 
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Don't you think a soul and a spirit are different things?
We read this about spirit
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1 Corinthians 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Scripture makes a distinction, so why don't you?
Just take the word 'soul' and stick it into verses instead of 'spirit' idea?
You are the one playing with words here with the whole "the word for death could mean either physical or spiritual". Well, when the topic is centered around the "soul", the only obvious conclusion is a "spiritual death" is being discussed. Unless you claim that the soul is somehow physical...which is wrong.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Jesus is telling the believer that he is secure in the sense that no external force can rip the believer away. Jesus, however, is not saying that once a believer, always a believer, is true.
Correct. In fact, He clearly taught in the parable of the soils that some will believe "for a while, and in time of temptation, will fall away".

However, He did not teach that falling away from the faith equals falling away from salvation, as many seem to believe.

Here is an analogy for thought. You are on a train, and the conductor says that no one can come and drag you forcefully from the train. He is not saying that you can't choose to leave the train.
But this analogy has no parallel in Scripture.

When a person believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30.

And...there are no verses that speak of this specific seal being broken for any reason or by any person, including God Himself.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Read your post on #276. You brought it up first.
This is what I posted:
"Should one believe that Jesus elected Judas for salvation, or for service?"

I was trying to get the other poster, to whom I was responding to, to explain why he would think that Judas (or anyone else) was elected for salvation.

I do not believe that election is about being chosen for salvation. That is a Calvinistic understanding of election, but cannot be shown from Scripture.
 
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Well, I would argue that a non-returnable salvation raises serious questions also. If we believe we are saved, and we believe that "once saved always saved", why couldn't i just do whatever I whatever I wanted. What is wrong with "easy believeism". As long as i believe i am saved I can do whatever i want and i will never loose my salvation? Of course you may claim that would only prove that I was never saved to begin with...right. Well, how about the prodigal son? Did he not loose appreciation for the blessings his father gave him? Did the prodigal son not freely choose to leave because he took those gifts for granted. However, he freely chose to come back.
So you are accusing the Calvinist brethren here of being deliberate hellbent sinners? Really?


This is a strawman that is both insulting and unwarranted. It accompanies the "God is the author of sin" nonsense.

Rather than attempt to poke holes in Calvinism, why not prove your pov beyond the shadow of a doubt?

Tells us what you believe and why it is right. Many subscribe to tenets in both Calvinism & Arminianism.


Luke 15 is a premiere example of OSAS and eternal security. How are you using it against Calvinism?
 
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bottomofsandal

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This is the gospel by which we must be saved (Romans 1:16). It is the gospel that we dare not change or set aside (Galatians 1:8-9). It is the gospel that we must proclaim to the lost, so that they may be saved (Romans 10:14-17). Let us listen well, then, to the gospel as Peter first proclaimed it at Pentecost. Let those rejoice who have received it, and let t hose who have not take heed to its warnings. DO NOT LET YOUR LOVE FOR JESUS GROW COLD. This is how one can fall away. Even Jesus warned us of such.
Glad you brought up Pentecost...


Wouldn't Peter have been obligated to bring up losing your salvation during his sermon?
Shouldn't he be warning people about protecting their salvation and the perils of losing salvation?
Shouldn't Peter be emphasizing that not working hard enough results in losing this gift of salvation?
Doesn't Peter owe these new believers the truth? This gift from God is neither stable nor dependable?
 
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WinterAngel

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Glad you brought up Pentecost...


Wouldn't Peter have been obligated to bring up losing your salvation during his sermon?
Shouldn't he be warning people about protecting their salvation and the perils of losing salvation?
Shouldn't Peter be emphasizing that not working hard enough results in losing this gift of salvation?
Doesn't Peter owe these new believers the truth? This gift from God is neither stable nor dependable?
Well, Jesus stated it in Matthew 24:10-13, Mark 13:13, and John 8:31, just to name a few passages, before Pentecost and after Pentecost countless times in the book of Revelations. Peter mentions it in 1 & 2 Peter. We do not know if he also shared of it in the book of Acts because many things happened that were not written. You cannot use Scripture and say Peter did not bring it up when he cannot defend himself and say he did. We don't know if he did at Pentecost but he certainly did in his letters. Paul, James, and John warned us as well. Is salvation a gift? Yes, a gift of grace. However we can lose it by not staying in hot pursuit of G-d. G-d will never let us be stolen away, but we certainly can walk away by letting our love for Him grow cold. Love is a choice, an action. G-d is a gentleman on top of being a holy, righteous, merciful, and loving King.

So my question is this. Coming from whom is more important, a disciple or Jesus himself? Jesus said it first so I'm following Him.

No matter how secure we think we may be, we should learn to recognize these warning signs, because the Scripture tells us that no one is totally safe from the danger: "If you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" (1 Corinthians 10:12). Common experience, common sense and the lessons of Scripture suggest a number of backsliding indicators: the loss of love for G-d; the loss of fear of G-d; and the loss of faith in G-d.

Do not let your love grow cold.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Well, Jesus stated it in Matthew 24:10-13, Mark 13:13, and John 8:31, just to name a few passages, before Pentecost and after Pentecost countless times in the book of Revelations.

Peter mentions it in 1 & 2 Peter. We do not know if he also shared of it in the book of Acts because many things happened that were not written. You cannot use Scripture and say Peter did not bring it up when he cannot defend himself and say he did. We don't know.

So my question is this. Coming from whom is more important, a disciple or Jesus himself? Jesus said it first so I'm following Him.
You ought to then believe what Jesus says here in John 10. Right?

No matter how secure we think we may be, we should learn to recognize these warning signs, because the Scripture tells us that no one is totally safe from the danger: "If you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" (1 Corinthians 10:12).
Fall where? From what to what? Fall down? Not lose salvation.

Common experience, common sense and the lessons of Scripture suggest a number of backsliding indicators: the loss of love for G-d; the loss of fear of G-d; and the loss of faith in G-d.
Do not let your love grow cold.
Backsliding does not equal loss of salvation. How hard do you have to work to keep salvation? How many works? How often? Jesus said His burden is light...


The love of all men is cold compared to Jesus...
Do all men therefore live in constant fear of losing salvation?
No one can pluck/snatch us from The Father's hands or Jesus' hands.
You need to disprove this with an example.
 
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You ought to then believe what Jesus says here in John 10. Right?

Fall where? From what to what? Fall down? Not lose salvation.


Backsliding does not equal loss of salvation. How hard do you have to work to keep salvation? How many works? How often? Jesus said His burden is light...


The love of all men is cold compared to Jesus...
Do all men therefore live in constant fear of losing salvation?
No one can pluck/snatch us from The Father's hands or Jesus' hands.
You need to disprove this with an example.
In answer to your questions, yes I do believe what He says in John 10.

Let me share an article which explains best where I stand.

It's time to throw out all the fancy schmancy -isms—Calvinism, Arminianism, dispensationalism—and just deal with the question. What exactly IS a Christian? Could it be different that what I've been taught? And, most importantly, how can I know for sure if I am one? Is it possible to lose your salvation?

What is salvation And the oft over-complicated answer to that question is…belief. That's it. We've tried to make it other things…the sinner's prayer, going to the front in church, baptism. But the simple truth is that only belief in the Messiah changes our hearts, lives, and eternities.

Interestingly, the crucial words "belief" and "faith" are used over 550 times in the Bible.Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved(Acts 16:31) and, …if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans 10:9). But therein lies the question…

What is belief? From the Greek word, Pisteuo, belief means "to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in." To me, this is the difference between faking it and staking it—that is, staking your life on what you profess. Believing something "in your heart" means that the core of you is wrapped around that belief. Belief is what you feel, think, depend upon, and therefore, what you do, who you are, and what you become.

There are too many "Christians" who say they believe in Jesus as their Messiah, but there is little significant evidence from their lives—decisions, attitudes, behaviors, convictions, conversations, morals, values, goals, habits—that would reflect their lip service. If you really believe Jesus died for you and set you free from bondage to sin and spiritual death, and if you really believe that the Creator of the Universe wants to have a personal, daily, intimate, and eternal relationship with you, your life should be radically, beautifully, permanently, tangibly, and consistently changing in every day life.

The New Testament is chock full of verses that point out the necessity of our outward lives being a reflection of our inward belief. It is impossible to please God without faith(Hebrews 11:6), Just as the body is dead without a spirit, so also faith is dead without good deeds (James 2:26), …work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Doing this, you will never stumble or fall away (2 Peter 1:10), Stop loving this evil world and all that it offers you, for when you love the world, you show that you do not have the love of the Father in you (1 John 2:15).

Those in history who have demonstrated this tangible, outward faith in their daily lives are a shining beacon and example for us to follow: Armed with only a shepherd's staff, Moses led several million people to the banks of a giant sea while enemy chariots bore down from behind. Abraham raised the knife to sacrifice his only son and his only hope for the fulfillment of God's promise of a great nation of offspring from whom the Messiah would come. Gideon, the self-proclaimed weakest person in Israel, headed into a valley filled with giant warriors to destroy them with the help of only thirty men. Esther dared to approach the powerful king—uninvited—to ask a questionable favor that incriminated his trusted advisor. David volunteered to take on a freak of a giant in hand-to-hand combat, one that even the king was afraid to face. Twelve men gave up everything to follow a man around the countryside who would end up dying a shameful death on a cross. What does this mean for us? We must understand that the requirements of faith for those people are really no different than the requirements for us today.

Can you "lose" it? Some people say, "What difference does it make? Just make sureyou're there." Well, that's all great…until it comes to the belief system I raise my kids with. What if I'm wrong? What if I teach them in such a way that jeopardizes where they spend eternity? Or what if I teach them in such a way that cripples their view of God's character?

I realize there's a spectrum of views on this issue, and not everyone will agree with my interpretation of Scripture. And that is okay. But I hope we will all think about this subject deeply and study it exhaustively for ourselves, until we know where we stand. But I base my belief about this on my thorough study of the entire Bible and not just a few isolated Scriptures.

First of all, I do not believe one can "lose" their salvation per se. It's true that no one can "snatch me out of my Father's hand." I also believe that only grace saves. I no more have power to save myself than I could swim across the Pacific. The forgiveness of my sins bridging the gap to favor with God for eternity is only dependent upon Christ's finished work at Calvary through His blood.

But therein, I have a part—a responsibility to respond, hence the first step of life-saving belief. And beyond that, I have the responsibility of remaining faithful to the end, exerting my free will to love God with all my heart, shown by obedience (John 14:21), and to stay in continuous fellowship with Him. The balance of grace and works appears to be a holy tension that cannot be separated. While He will not leave me or go back on His covenant with me (if we are faithless, he will remain faithful—2 Timothy 2:13), it appears that I can choose to end my agreement with Him (if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us—vs. 2:12).

Consider these additional passages of Scripture:

Conditional promises: "So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will continue to live in fellowship with the Son and with the Father (1 John 2:24, emphasis mine)." And, "For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ (Hebrews 3:14)

Esau traded his birthright: "Make sure that no one is immoral or godless like Esau. He traded his birthright as the oldest son for a single meal. And afterward, when he wanted his father's blessing, he was rejected. It was too late for repentance, even though he wept bitter tears." Hebrews 12:16-17

The son left his spiritual home: "We must celebrate with a feast, for this son of mine was dead and has now returned to life. He was lost, but now he is found (Luke 15:24)." This famous passage about the prodigal son has some interesting Greek translations. The word for son is Hulos, which can mean literal offspring as well as a son of Abraham. And the words for dead (Nekros) and lost (Apollumi) carry the metaphor of spiritually dead and sentenced to hell. This son, not a foreigner or someone outside the family, rebelliously left his father's house and brought upon himself a condition of being spiritually dead. While this metaphor was spoken about God's son Israel in the big picture, it is also warning to individuals.

The Israelites forfeited the Promised Land: God made a promise to Israel, His "chosen son," of bringing them into the Promised Land, but all of His promises to them were conditional upon their faithfulness and obedience. Their stubborn unbelief and rebellion kept a whole generation out of the Promised Land—their ordained inheritance. As we look ahead to our "Promised Land" of eternal life, the implications seem clear.

Judas sold Jesus: Judas was one of Jesus' chosen twelve. He was completely one of the family members in the inner circle of trust. He walked with Jesus, ate with Jesus, traveled with Jesus, lived with Jesus, was chosen by Jesus. How could Judas not have believed in Jesus at least at one time? He saw all the miracles with his own eyes. Yet Judas sold Jesus for thirty pieces of silver and sealed his fate.

The banished servant: "Who is a faithful, sensible servant, to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his household and feeding his family? If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I assure you, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But if the servant is evil and thinks, 'My master won't be back for a while,' and begins oppressing the other servants, partying, and getting drunk - well, the master will return unannounced and unexpected. He will tear the servant apart and banish him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth… (Matthew 24:45-51)."

Warnings: Solemn warnings about falling away pepper the Bible throughout, beginning in the law (Genesis through Deuteronomy), then the prophets (Isaiah through Malachi) and finally the New Testament. If it was not an option to walk away from God, why would the Bible need to post warnings? Warnings indicate there is something to be warned about. "Watch out, so that you do not lose the prize for which we have been working so hard. Be diligent so that you will receive your full reward. For if you wander beyond the teaching of Christ, you will not have fellowship with God (2 John 1:8-9)."

So here's the bottom line. If you have truly put your belief in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins in order to receive the free gift of eternal life, you now have a deliberate responsibility, Biblically speaking. You can't accidentally or easily "lose" your salvation, but I believe there is evidence that you can reject it by continuously ignoring God or refusing to obey Him. Like Esau, you can trade in your birthright as a child of God. He won't divorce you, but you can divorce Him. He won't disqualify you, but you will disqualify yourself by faithless rebellion and stiff-necked unbelief, as demonstrated by the way you willfully and consistently live your life.

So how can you and I know if we're saved for sure? "Remember that those who do good prove that they are God's children, and those who do evil prove that they do not know God (1 John 3:11)." It all comes down to how we exercise the miraculous mystery of our free will. And this free will is a beautiful picture of love in action. I can choose to receive because I am loved and desired. I can choose to respond because I love and desire.

Reference: http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritual-life/can-you-lose-your-salvation-11596904.html
 
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ManyWeaknesses

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To answer the question in the title of this thread, but not in the OP, is NO.

The reason is that the words "no one" really means no person. And since every believer is a person (unless there are some among the Arminians holding to conditional security who don't identify themselves as a person), not even the believer (person) him or her self can remove themselves from God's hand.

For those who still think they can remove themselves from the Father's hand, they are
basically claiming that they are more powerful than God Himself.

Even though John 10:29 says that God is "greater than ALL". That would obviously include every person.

No one can remove or snatch you you, but you are welcome to walk away.

That is the orthodox, Nicene Christian interpretation with how the Church that Jesus founded--the Catholic Church---interprets that verse.

The Calvinist stance crumbles under the truth of Orthodoxy.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Then if God is omnipotent, (and i am saying he is) and omniscient (and i am saying he is), why would He only elect some to be saved and not all if we have absolutely no choice it the matter? Is He unable? Why? Was the fall of man and unintended accident? Why? What other option is there other than God gave mankind freedom to choose to accept or reject salvation?
Universal salvation is not God's Divine will.

If all men being saved was God's will, then ALL men would be saved.

I refuse to question God. I am grateful for His amazing grace and mercy.


Praise God for His wonderful gift! Glory to God!
 
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bottomofsandal

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No one can remove or snatch you you, but you are welcome to walk away.

That is the orthodox, Nicene Christian interpretation with how the Church that Jesus founded--the Catholic Church---interprets that verse.

The Calvinist stance crumbles under the truth of Orthodoxy.
Whose orthodoxy? A majority opinion?

Show us Jesus contradicting Himself in John 10, where a man can be snatched away.
Show us Jesus, Peter, Paul, or anyone anywhere saying watch out for the snatchers.
Finally, please address the process a man would go through to want to leave...walk us through the process


This pov is freewill in disguise simpy demanding that the option to leave is always available to man...
Any freewill violation will not be tolerated. Every belief must subjugate and contort around freewill...
 
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FreeGrace2

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No one can remove or snatch you you, but you are welcome to walk away.
Where does the Bible teach such a possibility of leaving salvation. YES, a believer CAN walk away from fellowship with God. But that is NOT loss of salvation.

The relationship between God and His children is PERMANENT, no different than the physical relationship between human parent and child. Just as EVERY parent puts their DNA into their birth children, SO God has put His Holy Spirit into every child of His.

The Calvinist stance crumbles under the truth of Orthodoxy.
I don't defend the Calvinist stance. Nor the Arminian, nor the RCC.
 
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Whose orthodoxy? A majority opinion?

Show us Jesus contradicting Himself in John 10, where a man can be snatched away.
Show us Jesus, Peter, Paul, or anyone anywhere saying watch out for the snatchers.
Finally, please address the process a man would go through to want to leave...walk us through the process


This pov is freewill in disguise simpy demanding that the option to leave is always available to man...
Any freewill violation will not be tolerated. Every belief must subjugate and contort around freewill...

The same Holy Spirit which guards The Church and The Bible is the same Spirit which enables The Church to interpret this passage of Scripture. The same Bible you quote from is a catholic book. The Catholic Church is the only authority on interpreting the Bible; It is the Holy Spirit that guards Christ's Church.

Orthodoxy is not just a majority opinion, it's the truth protected, guarded and preserved by Christ's Church and The Holy Spirit. Paul said The Church is the Pillar and Foundation Of Truth. (1 Tim 3:15). You are calling Paul a liar by sayinf that The Church---The Catholic Church--is not the pillar and foundation of truth.
 
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