Jesus Says a Church Doesn't Need a Bishop

[timothyu]

Did the hierarchy resemble the governments of man or the hierarchy of the Kingdom?

 

[com7fy8]

Comfy: "I see here that Titus was operating under the direction of Paul, and Titus was not acting as a local church member to appoint elders."

That is the way it was done at the beginning, when the goal was to establish functioning churches. Do we know that there was any plan for this to continue?

Well, what was helpful at the beginning could later be helpful in other ways, once there were established churches.

I have seen how even churches called "local" and "independent" and "democratic" can have interconnection and accountability and organization among themselves, and the leaders overseeing this can have the authority of their good example.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

And what about Hebrews 13:17?

By the way, I think of this > I would think, even hope, that an elder would have someone as a mentor who would have authority of maturity and good example over the elder. And, of course, the mentor, too, would need someone to oversee the mentor, thanks to virtue of even greater maturity and better example, with ability to help the mentor to get real correction.

But, of course, we can have mutual submission and helping one another.

 

[Dale]

Offhand, it looks like the topic here was meant to be "Is God with even two or three people who have gathered in his name?"

In other words, it is not about having a congregation, ekklesia, assembly, etc. in which much else that Jesus taught and the New Testament expounds on can take place. That despite all the commentary here concerning altars, bishops, Roman Catholics, etc.


That's right.



No. That's a statement that reassures us of God's abiding presence in our lives. That's all. It says nothing about the church he founded (and said that he founded), how it would function, or anything else about its importance to us.

Albion: "No. That's a statement that reassures us of God's abiding presence in our lives. That's all."

God has an abiding presence in our lives even when we are alone. We can be sure that God has an abiding presence in our lives even when two or more are not gathered in His name. That's why I must conclude that Jesus is talking about the church, either one already founded or churches that came into existence later.

 

[Dan Perez]

The Roman Catholic Church, and some others, teach that to have a local church, you have to have an altar consecrated by a Bishop. The Bishop, in turn, has to have the proper Apostolic Succession and be ordained as a Bishop. Another requirement for a full church service is a parish priest who was ordained by a Bishop, and has permission from the local Bishop to perform the service.

These requirements are not in the Gospels or in the New Testament. What Jesus does say about Christians coming together is something completely different.


[Jesus says, ] “Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about
anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in
heaven.
For where two or three come together in my name, there am
I with them."
Matthew 18:19-20 NIV

It is clear that "where two or three come together" should be taken as "where two or more come together."

According to Jesus, a church doesn't have to have a Bishop, or a priest ordained by a Bishop. Jesus doesn't tell us that a church has to have an altar, or an altar that has been consecrated. The important thing is that when two or more Christians meet in the name of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit is with them.

Hi and the Greek THE BISHOP / EPISKOPOS is mused 6 x by the apostle Paul .

The Greek word BISHOP / EPISKOPO can also be translated by the following English words , SUPERINTENTENT , OVERSEER , ELDER .

So how are ELDERS , DEACONS , and PASTERS chosen ?

The best verse to use is Acts 20:28 as they were CHOSEN by the HOLY SPIRIT .

Also see HOW they were chosen as Acts 14:23 .

And in Acts 14:20 , TODAY Acts 14:23 reigns as mthe way to appoints PASTORS , ELDERS , AND DEACONS , a man with ONLY , ONE WOMAN , Titus 1:6 .

dan p

 

[Dale]

Hi and the Greek THE BISHOP / EPISKOPOS is mused 6 x by the apostle Paul .

The Greek word BISHOP / EPISKOPO can also be translated by the following English words , SUPERINTENTENT , OVERSEER , ELDER .

So how are ELDERS , DEACONS , and PASTERS chosen ?

The best verse to use is Acts 20:28 as they were CHOSEN by the HOLY SPIRIT .

Also see HOW they were chosen as Acts 14:23 .

And in Acts 14:20 , TODAY Acts 14:23 reigns as mthe way to appoints PASTORS , ELDERS , AND DEACONS , a man with ONLY , ONE WOMAN , Titus 1:6 .

dan p

You have a good point there, Dan.



They preached the good news in that city and won a large
number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium
and Antioch,
strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain
true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to
enter the kingdom of God,” they said.
Paul and Barnabas appointed elders [Or Barnabas ordained

elders; or Barnabas had elders elected] for them in each
church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the
Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
Acts 14:21-23 NIV


To say that Paul and Barnabas “had elders elected” makes it clear that the New Testament Church was not a top-down organization as many picture it. It makes sense that the Apostles would allow the local members to elect their leaders since they would know the members of the congregation better than the Apostles would.

This sounds more like a modern Baptist or congregation church than a modern hierarchical church.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Apostles deliberately placed bishops and presbyters to pastor the churches.

And St. Paul very clearly teaches that the Church and her gathered worship is to be orderly.

The Church has pastors because calling and ordaining persons for the task of ministry of Word and Sacrament is for good order, and this was itself established and put into place by Christ's own Apostles themselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[timothyu]

Is there not a difference between community living in the way intended with a community chosen representative (hence the Way) and a community under the offices of an institution?

 

[Dale]

The Apostles deliberately placed bishops and presbyters to pastor the churches.

And St. Paul very clearly teaches that the Church and her gathered worship is to be orderly.

The Church has pastors because calling and ordaining persons for the task of ministry of Word and Sacrament is for good order, and this was itself established and put into place by Christ's own Apostles themselves.

-CryptoLutheran

Orderly does not mean a top-down hierarchy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Orderly does not mean a top-down hierarchy.

I didn't mention a "top-down hierarchy".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

The New Testament pattern is for a body of believers (Εκκλησία) to have elders (Πρεσβύτερος) whose duty it is to oversee (hence they are sometimes referred to as bishops in older English translations, but as overseers in contemporary English translations.

There are also servants (Διάκονοι) which is transliterated from the Greek as deacons. They are not elders/overseers, but servants of the church.

 

[JLHargus]

Orderly does not mean a top-down hierarchy.

[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]KJV

[Hb13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]KJV

[Jn16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.]KJV

[Mt28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.]KJV

Christ sent one teaching authority to teach all nations till the end of the world. That teaching authority is continued by laying on of hands from the apostles to bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the end.

 

[Dale]

[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]KJV

[Hb13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]KJV

[Jn16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.]KJV

[Mt28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.]KJV

Christ sent one teaching authority to teach all nations till the end of the world. That teaching authority is continued by laying on of hands from the apostles to bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the end.

JL, hello, since I don’t think I have met you before, and thanks for your interest.

JL: “Christ sent one teaching authority to teach all nations till the end of the world.”

I assume that you are taking the side of the RCC in this. I don’t believe it is true that Jesus insisted on organizational unity of “teaching authority.” Roman Catholics believe, or assume, that Peter is the Chief Apostle, yet there are several verses that show us that Jesus gave authority to all the Apostles.

In the Epistles of Peter, Peter doesn’t introduce himself as Chief Apostle or as the head of the Christian Church. He simply says that he is an Apostle and makes no claim to be above the other Apostles.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, strangers in
the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia,
Asia and Bithynia …
I Peter 1:1 NIV

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those
who through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus
Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.
2 Peter 1:1 NIV

 

[Dale]

[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]KJV

[Hb13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]KJV

[Jn16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.]KJV

[Mt28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.]KJV

Christ sent one teaching authority to teach all nations till the end of the world. That teaching authority is continued by laying on of hands from the apostles to bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the end.

JL: “[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]KJV”


The NIV translation of the same verse simply says to “Remember your leaders.”

Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you.
Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their
faith. Hebrews 13:7 NIV

Young’s Literal Translation also strikes a tone that sounds quite different from the KJV.

Be mindful of those leading you, who did
speak to you the word of God, whose faith—considering the
issue of the behaviour—be imitating, Jesus Christ
yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;
Hebrews 13:7 YLT

Since you are quoting from the King James Version ...

The website US Conference of Catholic Bishops has the Bible online in the New American Bible, NAB, version. This is their favorite version. The website does have a list of approved versions, which does not specifically list the KJV.

While you are talking about submitting to authority, do you differ from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops on Bible translations?


Link
Books of the Bible | USCCB
Preface, PREFACE TO THE REVISED NEW AMERICAN BIBLE OLD TESTAMENT | USCCB

 

[JLHargus]

JL: “[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]KJV”


Dale: The NIV translation of the same verse simply says to “Remember your leaders.”

Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you.
Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their
faith. Hebrews 13:7 NIV

Young’s Literal Translation also strikes a tone that sounds quite different from the KJV.

Be mindful of those leading you, who did
speak to you the word of God, whose faith—considering the
issue of the behaviour—be imitating, Jesus Christ
yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;
Hebrews 13:7 YLT

JL: I have no problem with any literal translation. A leader has authority.

Dale: Since you are quoting from the King James Version ...

The website US Conference of Catholic Bishops has the Bible online in the New American Bible, NAB, version. This is their favorite version. The website does have a list of approved versions, which does not specifically list the KJV.

JL: There are three reasons I use the KJV.

1 Twenty years ago many Protestants believed, if it isn't KJV it isn't scripture, although not so much anymore.

2 It is public domain, on Bible Gateway, so can be used without permission.

3 If I used a Catholic bible many would dismiss it as a biased Catholic Translation, or if they have no answer, for no other reason than to change the subject.


Dale: While you are talking about submitting to authority, do you differ from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops on Bible translations?

JL: I'm not aware of any English translation being prohibited. I have several bibles including NAB. The NAB is read at English Masses. I don't particularly care for the NAB, some Catholic theologians prefer RSV.

I would say not all U.S. bishops consider the NAB the best translation. The Church recognizes that no translation is perfect.

By the way Catholics are free to disagree with bishops or the Pope, but not on defined dogma. That is one of the many Protestant misconceptions about the Church.

I would be happy to answer any questions you might have, although it may be a fews days between. Thanks.

 

[bbbbbbb]

JL: “[Hb13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.]KJV”


Dale: The NIV translation of the same verse simply says to “Remember your leaders.”

Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you.
Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their
faith. Hebrews 13:7 NIV

Young’s Literal Translation also strikes a tone that sounds quite different from the KJV.

Be mindful of those leading you, who did
speak to you the word of God, whose faith—considering the
issue of the behaviour—be imitating, Jesus Christ
yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;
Hebrews 13:7 YLT

JL: I have no problem with any literal translation. A leader has authority.

Dale: Since you are quoting from the King James Version ...

The website US Conference of Catholic Bishops has the Bible online in the New American Bible, NAB, version. This is their favorite version. The website does have a list of approved versions, which does not specifically list the KJV.

JL: There are three reasons I use the KJV.

1 Twenty years ago many Protestants believed, if it isn't KJV it isn't scripture, although not so much anymore.

2 It is public domain, on Bible Gateway, so can be used without permission.

3 If I used a Catholic bible many would dismiss it as a biased Catholic Translation, or if they have no answer, for no other reason than to change the subject.


Dale: While you are talking about submitting to authority, do you differ from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops on Bible translations?

JL: I'm not aware of any English translation being prohibited. I have several bibles including NAB. The NAB is read at English Masses. I don't particularly care for the NAB, some Catholic theologians prefer RSV.

I would say not all U.S. bishops consider the NAB the best translation. The Church recognizes that no translation is perfect.

By the way Catholics are free to disagree with bishops or the Pope, but not on defined dogma. That is one of the many Protestant misconceptions about the Church.

I would be happy to answer any questions you might have, although it may be a fews days between. Thanks.

Hi JL. I suggest that when you reply to a particular post that you use the reply prompt at the bottom right corner of the post. Then it is much easier to read your response to the previous post.

For many centuries the RCC relied on the Latin Vulgate as the translation par excellent for the Bible. If you don't read Greek or Hebrew, but do read Latin, you might want to have a look at it.

 

[Valletta]

JL, hello, since I don’t think I have met you before, and thanks for your interest.

JL: “Christ sent one teaching authority to teach all nations till the end of the world.”

I assume that you are taking the side of the RCC in this. I don’t believe it is true that Jesus insisted on organizational unity of “teaching authority.” Roman Catholics believe, or assume, that Peter is the Chief Apostle, yet there are several verses that show us that Jesus gave authority to all the Apostles.

Jesus renamed Simon as Rock Jesus using words paralleling Isaiah 22, which every Jew of the time should have recognized. Then Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Rock (Peter) and to no other Apostle.
In Isaiah, the keys to the kingdom are given to the prime minister by the king so that the people know the prime minister has full authority when the king is absent.

 

[timothyu]

the keys to the kingdom are given to the prime minister by the king so that the people know the prime minister has full authority when the king is absent.

That would apply in a worldly kingdom, but as Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world.

 

[Valletta]

That would apply in a worldly kingdom, but as Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world.

Why do you wish to put constraints on the words of Jesus? Take Him at his Word.

 

[timothyu]

Take Him at his Word.

That is His word. We build our own kingdoms, even in His name. He will return and tear them all down.

 

[Valletta]

That is His word. We build our own kingdoms, even in His name. He will return and tear them all down.

Jesus left us his promise that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church.