Jesus or Mere Theism

[SavedByGrace3]

Many times in the Charismatic area we see "traditional-orthodox" beliefs being questioned. Many of us in the Charismatic movement have come to see and understand God in a different light than those who identify more with "theology". I have referred to these as followers of "mere theism". I call it this because those who adhere to "mere theism" seem to be missing it when it comes to the "Jesus revelation" of God. We as Christians are to see and understand the nature, will, work, and overall image of God according to what Jesus revealed to us. Mere theists insist that this is not enough and that in order to have a "deeper understanding" of God we should study and ascribe to what are commonly called the "general attributes of God" i.e the "OMNI" factors.
Omnipresence
Omnipercipience
Omnipotence
Omniscience
Super Sovereignty

Are these "general attributes of God" compatible with the Jesus revelation?
It is my contention that God wants us to understand Him, but He wants us to understand Him in the Light of what Jesus showed us. Jesus is the exact image of the Father, and He is the who and how God wants us to understand Him. As I have stated before, very often "mere theists" find it hard to come to faith concerning the promises of God because their adherence to the "general attributes" actually hinder their faith. Many Many times I have discussed these issues with believers who cannot come to faith because they choose to believe in the omni-factor revelation of God rather than the Jesus revelation of God. Very often in confusion they will take clear statements by Jesus and attempt to bend them to fit the omni factors. Very often I have found that "mere theists" do not believe that the gospel is the final word from God regarding our salvation and redemption. They insist that there is still a sovereignty matter in this. They fail to see that this is a finished work, and that there is nothing left for God to do or decide. At the other extreme we see mere theists who insist that all of our fates and even the minute details of our lives have already been decided, and that there is really nothing we can do to change anything. Others insist that God is in control of all things to the extent that all the evil and sin in the world is a direct result of the will and power of God.
Of course I disagree with all of this. Not that some of this does not make logical sense if one adheres to the OMNI factors... but they are just contrary to the Jesus Factors. These things are just contrary to what Jesus said and showed us in His teaching and ministry.
There will come a time when the mere theist will have to decide who he is going to follow... Jesus or the theologian.

 

[TheScottsMen]

didaskalos AMEN!
I believe also like you. God gave us the Bible for a reason. The bible speaks so many times about God, what he is like, even bodily type. God didn't inspire some prophet, scribe or apostle to write just for the heck of it. God meant what he said said what he meant, be it about angels, satan, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Scripture interprets scripture. Not man.

 

[TheScottsMen]

So many people treat the bible like a buffet table. Taking what they want and discarding the rest or making the leftovers fit with their theology. The bible was written in a common language, be it from Hebrew or Koine Greek. It was written for everyday people to understand. If we simply believed what the Bible said, letting it interpret our theology and not the other way around we would no doubt see people being raised from the dead, the sick being healed and the devil being casted out on a massive scale. Not to mention we would know God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit so much better. For instance. If my bank sent me a letter saying "..You have been granted a loan for 500,000 anytime you want it, simply come in and pick it up. Signed by the President of the Bank." The next day, I go pickup my loan for 500,00 because the bank gave me the authority to do so. We trust the bank that what they said they meant. Should we do ANYTHING LESS with Jesus?

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Should we trust Jesus less then we trust a bank?!? Theologians will come up with hundreds of EXCUSES to try to show that Jesus did not mean what he said. Their Jesus and God is different then mine. My God means what he says and backs up what he says by his throne. When we start questioning Jesus on His Word and what it says its simply unbelief. If we can't take Jesus at his Word, then there is no reason to believe John 3;16. Maybe he didn't mean it. Maybe a theologian has to correct Jesus on this as well.

TSM

 

[oneshot012]

I totally agree with you all and i get this problem a lot with Divine Healing and what not people picking and choosing what they want to believe. I you all will like this quote although i can't remember who said it right now if i think of it i will edit the post later and put it there

Never put a question mark where God has put a period.

 

[Theophilus7]

Hello didaskalos,

I expect many people who frequent the Charismatic Forum in christianforums.com would classify me as the "theologian type" (not intending a compliment, either). Nevertheless, just about everyone has been friendly and tolerant, and I'm glad we can all discuss these sorts of things and understand one another better in a calm and relaxed (most of the time!) atmosphere.

Actually, I think we have quite a bit of common ground.

1. Whilst I don't think "theology" is a bad word, nor do I believe we should shy away from synthesising biblical truth into Christian doctrine, I can see why the word 'theology' has bad connotations for many people. Some Christians have reduced their faith to 'mere intellectualism'. They have become like the Greek philosophers - more interested in talking and thinking than doing. Also, many people with "theological knowledge" are proud and puffed up. They don't experience God's Holy Spirit, and they try to explain away their lack of experience in clever ways (Ah, the heart of man is deceitful!). Many theologians who develop their heads at the expense of their hearts fall in love with intellectualism itself - they get their kicks out of anything clever. Savouring lofty speculations, desiring to appear wise in the world's eyes, they abandon their faith in the Bible as God's Word and become 'mere theists', as you would put it. Theology, like any human art, can supplant our "first love". The artist may learn to love the actual painting more than the objects that first inspired him to render them on paper. The storyteller may learn to love the skill of storytelling more than the wonderful things he wanted to communicate to others. This is true of the theologian also. He too may fall in love with the 'telling' rather than the object of the telling. The systems, the principles, the art of communicating difficult concepts in intelligible words, all of these can become the object of his passion. He has forgotten what first inspired Him to explain, to think, to use every cell in his brain to get across to others the wonder of the One who has captivated and enthralled him. No. He is content just to be clever now, and be seen to be clever. But the evil does not lie in the art itself. It is in his own heart.

2. Concerning the "Jesus revelation" - we both agree that Jesus expresses God. Indeed, the Bible declares Him the image of the invisible God. But it does not constitute a denial that God is omni-this and omni-that. Indeed, it is because God is so "big" that He must objectify Himself to us. Love could do no less. But I shall not wax long on this.

One thing I would like to point out on the subject of Jesus expressing the Father's heart is that people often go to the gospels for their picture of Jesus, but ignore the book of Revelation. They see Jesus the Healer in the gospels, Jesus the meek, Jesus the loving, the kind, the suffering... But in Revelation, Jesus is also seen as the King, as the Judge, as the Almighty - executing terrible punishments upon sinners. I think people often miss that out when they talk about Jesus revealing the Father's heart.

That's all for now.

 

[Theophilus7]

didaskalos AMEN!
I believe also like you. God gave us the Bible for a reason. The bible speaks so many times about God, what he is like, even bodily type. God didn't inspire some prophet, scribe or apostle to write just for the heck of it. God meant what he said said what he meant, be it about angels, satan, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Scripture interprets scripture. Not man.

Ah, hello again The ScottsMen.

Do you really feel that the incarnation makes the concept of a bodiless God a mere piece of dry scholasticism?

 

[Trish1947]

We have been given this book called the Bible. And everyone pretty much when they read it have made up their minds, what to believe about it. We go from one spectre to an other, when it is read. Some think it's total nonsense they put it down and never pick it up again. Others find it has some nice stories and some awfully bloody stories that depict in their thinking a mean and cruel God. Some find some scriptures that they can tolerate if it don't interfere with their life as a whole. Some find that there might be some inspirational reads about Jesus and what a nice man he was, or was he just a man? Then there is those who believe that its the Word of God, as long as I dont have to believe EVERY word that is written, after all it was written by man. So, I dont have to believe everything I read in it. Then there are those that believe that the entire Bible is the inspired word of God, they are interested, and that word is getting down in their hearts causing them to bear fruit in their lives. Then your asked should I believe that everything that Jesus said to do, all the promises, are for my time? Then your driven to decide, can God lie? And the only answer you can come up with is NO. So you start putting Gods word as the Gospel of Truth that really causes results in your life, then you become a totally convienced believer, A converted believer in Jesus Christ, and everything He had to say.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Let me try and expand a bit with some real life examples.

A young person hears the gospel, believes, and is saved. He begins his walk with the Lord virtually ignorant of the scriptures beyond those verses that brought him to salvation. But he is hungry for the word and for truth, so he gets a good study bible and a couple commentaries. At first he is excited about the wonderful promises that he sees... especially in the gospels. He reads about glorious healings, demons being cast out, and prayers being answered in the name of Jesus. It is with a childlike faith that he innocently believes and ultimately receives. It is the common "first love" experience of many believers. He does not know to doubt. He just accepts that the name of Jesus has power in heaven and that it is the desire of the Father that he receive..."because Jesus said so...".
Then he reads in theology that there are legitimate reasons why people are not healed, delivered, or even saved. He reads the great theologians who say that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today, and are even of the devil. The preacher in his church tells him that he cannot always know what the will of God is, and comes to believe that the will of God is still up in the air and that the gospel did not really resolve the issues of overcoming in this life. Slowly but surely his faith is eaten away. After a while he does not know what to believe. The logical arguments presented by these great men of God seem to make sense. Soon he is falls into a "general faith" religion that believes nothing in particular and everything in general. He moves from a position of faith to one of resignation. He now believes that to be a believer means to resign one's self to the inevitable.... whether it is sickness, poverty, oppression, and even untimely death. He once believed that faith helped him to overcome the troubles of his life... now it merely strengthens him to undergo those troubles. This image of God filters into his own life and walk. Soon he also becomes cold and indifferent... much like the image of God that holds to be true. He may become bitter and resentful, and even angry at those who are naive as he once was about a "God who was more than enough".
This is an all to common story.

 

[Trish1947]

Let me try and expand a bit with some real life examples.

You post does indeed discribe what can happen to someone that is relying wholly on their teachers and pastors in the church, as new believers. I was not informed in your post if after a persons conversion and acceptance of Christ, if the experience was followed through with the seeking of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There where the power to stand in your faith is given. "You shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you".. Thats the missing link. The Holy Spirit becomes your teacher wheather the things that are being said are valid or not. "You shall not have need of any man to teach you to know the Lord, but the Lord shall be your teacher". His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the Sons of God. The Holy Spirit is the driving force in a believers life, to believe for the impossible. There is nothing that can cause you to fall from the truth that you first received.

 

[victoryword]

Excellent points Didaskalos on the "mere theism" things. Excellent points also Theophilus7 on how we can allow "theology" to replace our true love, which is intimacy with the LIVING God.

I am a Charismatic and unashamedly a Word-Faither (I prefer to say moderate or balanced Word-Faither. I'll explain it someday). However, I have no problems at all in systematized Bible teaching if we do not allow it to become DEAD ORTHODOXY as too many often do. For example, I am not as much against the "omni-factors" as Didi is though I share his sentiments with HOW they have been taught amongst "mere theists."

As a matter of fact, Tony Evans, an Evangelical pastor in Dallas, Texas, has an excellent book out titled "Our God is Awsome". In this book, Evans teaches on the attributes of God, including the "omni-factors." But he does it in a way in which you will not just get "mere theism: but how these truths in relation to Scripture applies to our lives.

I have no access to the book right now, and for years I have thought about writing a book teaching on the "omni-factors" from a Word-Faith perspective. Someday. However, when we look at these omni-factors fromScripture, and recognize how they apply to our lives, they no longer become mere theism:

Omnipresence - Because of this I know that God will keep His promise to be with me wherever I go. His promise to "never leave me nor forsake me" is not doubted because He has the ability to be with me and His other children at the same time. I know that I can always talk to Him without concerning myself if He is giving attention to the other millions of His children. I know He lives in me by the Holy Spirit, but this same person also lives in my wife and He is in and with my children at school and work. It also makes me conscious about sinning. If God is oomnipresence, then He is there when I sin and is aware of it. Difficult to willingly sin when you are aware of God's presence.

Omnipotence - I know that my God has all power and so whatever I ask Him for, I need not doubt His ability to accomplish it. However, if taught properly, we know that God does not arbitrarily exercise power just to prove that He is God. Whenever God speaks of His omnipotence in the Bible, it is usally for the purpose of building faith. For example, when God told Abraham, "Is anything to hard for God?" This was meant to enhance Abraham's faith, not to brag on how powerful He was.

Furthermore, God makes His omnipotence available to us. Jesus told us that nothing is impossible to him that believes (Mark 9:23). The prince of preachers, C. H. Spurgeon well said, "There is nothing like faith. Faith makes you almost as omnipotent as God, by borrowed power of its divinity. Give us faith and we can do all things.

Omniscience - If God is all wise and all knowing then I can trust His direction and uidance, even when it makes no sense to my natural mind. I know that I can get His advice on ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. Who is better to advise you, direct you and lead you than an oomniscient God. That is why Proverbs tells us not to lean to our own understanding but to acknowledge Him in all our ways and He will direct our steps. He can be trusted because He has knowledge of all things.

Sovereignty - Forget the "super" part. Usually the "super-sovereignty" is synonymous with what I call "meticulous sovereignty." The type of "sovereignty that makes God a control freak. That is not "sovereignty" in the best sense of the word. The description of sovereignty used by many theologians is a God who is insecure and must manipulate everything.

Sovereignty simply means having rule, reign, or authority over something. It does NOT mean controlling the people and events under one's sovereignty. Any king over a country is "sovereign" in the true sense of the word. But that does not mean that they control all of the affairs of their kingdom in a meticulous manner.

Jesus is truly "King of kings and Lord of lords." He is sovereign. He has all authority in Heaven and in earth. Yet, Romans 5:17 says that He shares His sovereignty with us. We rule and reign with him. I like how the great reformer, Martin Luther put it: The child of God must, indeed, attempt and accomplish great things. The birth effected through the Word and faith makes men true sovereigns, above all earthly rulers; it gives them power even to overcome the world, something impossible to any Roman or Turkish potentate

Now, I don't know what "Omnipercipience" is, so you will have to explain that one to me Didi.

Anyway, when the omni-factors are taken from a BIBLICAL perspective, they become more than just dry theology or dead orthodoxy. They become the basis for faith and confidence in the living God Himself.

 

[Theophilus7]

A great post, victoryword!

The very fact that we have a Bible should teach us to relate what we learn about God back to His creation. We were made to enjoy Him, and He wants to be a blessing to us!

But I think there is the danger of a slight imbalance here, however - one which you may not be guilty of, victoryword, but which others reading your post might fall into. It's good to relate God back to man and see how God's "bigness" means He can meet our needs, take care of us, instruct us, guide us, be with us always etc, but I think there is a higher (or nobler) pleasure than that. I believe there is an appreciation for God that goes beyond the "how can God meet my needs?" question to enjoy something about God because it is simply glorious...

What I am trying to say is something like this: There is a love and appreciation for the truths of the divine nature which does not derive its being from the passage of God's attributes through the lens of human 'poverty', but from the perception of the intrinsic merit that every aspect of the Godhead contains. These truths are not merely wonderful as they pertain to the human situation - they acually merit our worship and reverence on their own grounds. The worshipper stands in awe of the objective reality of God, glorious as He is, glorious before man was, glorious without man's needy eyes to look upon Him, glorious in Himself!

This is not to say that natural love (which springs from poverty) will finally be done away with as worship becomes more 'objective' and less self-absorbed, but it is supplemented (or engulfed?) with an appreciative pleasure of the divine nature, somehow escaping mere creatureliness and ascending to the very throne of God! Man, though he remains forever a dependent creature, has in some sense become like a god! He sees perfection face to face...

*Sigh*. I am still an inarticulate beast . I haven't said half of what should be said and have probably said it all wrong. See what you can make of such sloppy work. I'm going to bed.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

 

[victoryword]

Theophilus7

I understand perfectly what you are saying and I agree. We should be in awe of God. Our knowledge of the Almighty should lead us first to reverence and worship, and this should be primary.

However, we should still NOT forget His benefits, as we are admonished in Psalm 103:1-5

 

[Godz Marine]

Amen Amen Amen!!!!!!!!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Now, I don't know what "Omnipercipience" is, so you will have to explain that one to me Didi.

Neither did I until I happened across the word in the dictionary while writing the post.
It means to perceive, or be aware off all things at all times.

Websters:
Omnipercipience
OMNIPERCIP'IENCE, n. [L. omnis, and percipiens, perceiving.]

Perception of every thing.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Let me illustrate another way that the OMNI factors can cause people to miss faith.

Omnipotence.
This is not just some theory I have come up with and am throwing out as a hypothetical. These are actual arguments and reasonings I have encountered in reading anti-Charismatic material and while engaged in debates with other believers who I know are saved and love God, but have had their faith usurped.

1. God is All Powerful, which means:
"God can do anything."
But it also means:
There is no power that exists separate from, or independant of, or outside of, God.
Therefore we are forced to conclude that God does everything. If something or someone did something with power that is not of or from God, then there exists power separate from God and God would not be "ALL" powerful.
2. God is in control... meaning nothing happens that is not a direct result of the will of God, whether it is passive or direct. He is in direct control of everything down to the atom and nano-second.
Therefore everything that occurs in the universe is a direct result of the power of God. His power (there is no other power) and will (whether passive or directing) causes all things to happen.
Therefore every abortion, rape, murder, infant death, war, etc... is not only the direct result of a manifestion of the power of God (there is no other power) but is a direct result of His will (He is in control of everything). The end result of this reasoning is: it must be the will of God that I am the way I am, and what happens to me must be a direct result of the All Powerful God who is in control of everything.
From this good people will form an image (a "revelation" if you will) of a Father who is not at all like Jesus, rather is more like the Greek gods of old who behaved much like what I have described above.


(These are not my ideas....these thoughts come from dear saints who love God but find themselves bound up by theologial concepts. The theological concepts on their face are not bad... but the conclusions that logic forces upon us are definately wrong and contrary to the revelation of the Father as presented to us by Jesus.)

Most of us know that Jesus is the exact image of the Father, and that if we want to see the Father we need to be looking at Jesus. If you have a image of God that is a failed attempt to concieve God in the mold of the "general attributes" of God as presented above, then you are missing it. Jesus came to show us the Father, and these reasonings and logic are contrary to that revelation. Part of our faith is to believe in Jesus. He is the revelation of God that GOD wants us to hold. He is the understanding of God that GOD sent to us.
I am not saying abandon the OMNI factors. But when it comes to faith and your relationship with the Father.... use the Jesus image. That is why He came, so we could see and understand that which by it's very nature cannot be understood or even seen by mere men.
Blessings
Didy

 

[enoch son]

I like what I have read but----- I saw the glory of the Father last sat. nite in- I don't know what you would call it (some were praying, some were praising, some were being prayed for)? It did not look like Jesus, it was a cloud lite blue and white. As I watch it come up from the ground it cover my hands and came up my arms. About 2 feet thick. Get ready it come to you too. So how does that fit?

 

[look]

I thought the Glory of God comes down from Heaven? Remember the story of King Saul consulting a medium? The medium called for the prophet Samuel and Samuel came up from the ground (Jesus hadn't released the righteous dead at that time). JMHO...

 

[Theophilus7]

Excellent post, didaskalos. I have yet to read any Christian theologian who took omnipotence and Sovereignty quite that far, but you are right to point out where many Calvinistic-type theologies end up. "God is controlling and directing everything" therefore "God is controlling and directing evil" therefore "God is causing evil" therefore "God is a devil" :o . Yikes!

I maintain however that these Sovereignty issues are largely resolved when we accept that God is able to limit Himself. "He is Sovereign over Himself". If you don't get that point, I think you can never logically escape the cold, lifeless picture of God as the impassive, unmoved mover pulling strings...

I remember not so long ago when I first began to wrestle with these concepts. I just couldn't see how God could care about me with anything more than a cold, magisterial concern. He has no needs. He is fullness in Himself. He was perfectly happy before anything was made, and He doesn't change in His attributes, so He is still perfectly happy regardless of whether I serve Him or don't. How can something outside of Himself affect Him? That doesn't make sense! The image of God as a perfect mind in contemplation of Himself seemed very logical... In my heart, I knew better than that, but I still couldn't seem to find a logical escape. I think what really struck me, reading the Bible, was God's passion. He has so much feeling! I couldn't disregard it as mere anthropomorphism with nothing behind it. And if He can really feel happy and sad, if He can feel passionate about His creation, then there is something approaching a "need" in the Godhead. This seemed so obvious from reading the Bible.... but how to get their theologically? And it seemed to contradict other scriptures too (Acts 17:25). My breakthrough came when I realised God could limit Himself. He's not a slave to His own attributes! In His love, God can sovereignly choose to (in some sense) "need" us, because we need to be needed! His passion is genuine. And He can sovereignly choose to have His will frustrated, because He doesn't want a world full of push-button automatons. Creation can affect God because God is able to will that creation should affect God, in His plans and in His passions!

To sum it up, if we are to theologise correctly, it is so necessary, I believe, to realise that God is Sovereign over Himself. Without this "revelation", our image of God will inevitably swell to crush and absorb every spot of meaning and action in the cosmos, parasitically assimilating every atom in the universe into a bulging, pantheistic, puppeteer Godhead pulling strings for His own amusement.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thank you for the response T7.

I have yet to read any Christian theologian who took omnipotence and Sovereignty quite that far, but you are right to point out where many Calvinistic-type theologies end up. "God is controlling and directing everything" therefore "God is controlling and directing evil" therefore "God is causing evil" therefore "God is a devil" :o . Yikes!

I think perhaps these men know quite well, at some level, that God is not like what their fundamental concepts seem to say He is like. It is a situation where the "OMNI" factors join with the "walk by sight" error and generate a devilish god.
Before actually getting there, they pull back on the reigns. Yet the cliff they create and desperately want to avoid still exists. Unfortunately many cannot escape it's effect on their faith. It is a downward slope cascading with doubts and fears that permeate many areas of their faith and fellowship. I think it is a dilemma which Jesus came to deliver us from.

I maintain however that these Sovereignty issues are largely resolved when we accept that God is able to limit Himself. "He is Sovereign over Himself". If you don't get that point, I think you can never logically escape the cold, lifeless picture of God as the impassive, unmoved mover pulling strings...

Well said. Such a profound and essential truth must be revealed in the Word! And where is this "limiting effect" found in scripture? I think it is clearly seen in the kenosis of Christ mentioned in Phil 2. The Jesus image of God is the revelation of that quality. The most important (at least to us) is that we can now accept and use the "OMNI" factors if and when the understandings they lead us to promote faith rather than diminish it. Else what meaning would Hebrews 11 have?

Hebrews 11:6 GW
6 No one can please God without faith. Whoever goes to God must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

What a simple statement about the attitude every believer must take when approaching God. You have to believe that He will reward you when seeking Him. A strict adherence to the OMNI would never allow this attitude of faith and in fact calls it presumption. We would have no right, much less a presumption of any response from the OMNI God. Hence I have to assume that believers who adhere to the strict observance of the OMNI factors "are not pleasing God!"
I have heard the concept of "a self limiting God" before, and have also heard it criticized by some who would say that if God limited Himself in any way then He would cease to be God. This is an example of the world traps that the OMNI factors can lead to.

I remember not so long ago when I first began to wrestle with these concepts. I just couldn't see how God could care about me with anything more than a cold, magisterial concern. He has no needs. He is fullness in Himself. He was perfectly happy before anything was made, and He doesn't change in His attributes, so He is still perfectly happy regardless of whether I serve Him or don't. How can something outside of Himself affect Him? That doesn't make sense! The image of God as a perfect mind in contemplation of Himself seemed very logical... In my heart, I knew better than that, but I still couldn't seem to find a logical escape. I think what really struck me, reading the Bible, was God's passion. He has so much feeling! I couldn't disregard it as mere anthropomorphism with nothing behind it. And if He can really feel happy and sad, if He can feel passionate about His creation, then there is something approaching a "need" in the Godhead. This seemed so obvious from reading the Bible.... but how to get their theologically? And it seemed to contradict other scriptures too (Acts 17:25). My breakthrough came when I realised God could limit Himself. He's not a slave to His own attributes! In His love, God can sovereignly choose to (in some sense) "need" us, because we need to be needed! His passion is genuine. And He can sovereignly choose to have His will frustrated, because He doesn't want a world full of push-button automatons. Creation can affect God because God is able to will that creation should affect God, in His plans and in His passions!

I think that your concept of God being Love is in fact the ultimate answer to the debate. I agree and reply that Jesus is that concept incarnate. It is the exact image of the Father that the OMNI factors cannot factor. It defies logic and so cannot be qualified and quantified into a logical structure demanded by OMNIists. No man has or can see God... to do so would result in death. No man can reason out God... it is beyond our ability. To attempt to do so can only lead to folly. Again, this is why God the Father sent Jesus... so we would have a image(or as you say"an object"), a concept upon which we could base our faith upon and found our fellowship. I cannot reason or fathom "the flood "or "hell" or "eternity".... all those who have attempted to produce an image of God from these articles have only led themselves into doubt and despair. But I can reason and grasp Jesus. I can see it. I can know Him both mentally and experientially. This is where I can touch ground with God. Here I can see Him.

To sum it up, if we are to theologise correctly, it is so necessary, I believe, to realise that God is Sovereign over Himself. Without this "revelation", our image of God will inevitably swell to crush and absorb every spot of meaning and action in the cosmos, parasitically assimilating every atom in the universe into a bulging, pantheistic, puppeteer Godhead pulling strings for His own amusement.

Quite so. Well said. Rarely observed.
Do you have scriptural support for this concept? (which I agree with, and as I said before, is seen in the life and ministry of Jesus)
More to say on the matter... but long posts rarely get read.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hidden Things:
There is truth that is not meant to be found out by men. This hidden truth, which is often the whys and wherefores of God's actions, belongs to Him and Him alone:
Deuteronomy 29:29 GW
29 Some things are hidden. They belong to the LORD our God. But the things that have been revealed in these teachings belong to us and to our children forever. We must obey every word of these teachings.

Various understandings of this verse:
Clarke
"...The secret things belong unto the Lord, etc. - This verse has been variously translated. Houbigant renders it thus: Quae apud Dominum nostrum abscondita sunt, nobis ea filiisque nostris palam facta sunt ad multas aetates, The things which were hidden with the Lord our God, are made manifest to us and our children for many generations. I am not satisfied with this interpretation, and find that the passage was not so understood by any of the ancient versions. The simple general meaning seems to be this: What God has thought proper to reveal, he has revealed; what he has revealed is essential to the well-being of man, and this revelation is intended not for the present time merely, nor for one people, but for all succeeding generations. The things which he has not revealed concern not man but God alone, and are therefore not to be inquired after...."



Gill
"... There are many secret things ... in Providence, which are unsearchable, and past finding out by finite minds, especially the true causes and reasons of them; and there are many things relating to God himself, which remain secret with him; notwithstanding the revelation he has made of himself; for not only some of his perfections, as eternity, immensity, &c. are beyond our comprehension; but the mode of subsistence of the three divine Persons in the Godhead, the paternity of the one, the generation of the other, and the procession of the Spirit from them both; the union of the two natures, divine and human, in the person of Christ; the thoughts, purposes, and decrees of God within himself, until brought into execution; and so there are many things relating to his creatures, as the particular persons predestinated unto eternal life, what becomes of such who die in infancy, what will befall us in life, when we shall die, where and in what manner, and also the day and hour of the last judgment... but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever; the things of nature and Providence, which are plain and manifest, are for our use and instruction; and especially the word and ordinances of God, which are the revelation of his will, the doctrines and promises contained in the Scriptures, each of the duties of religion, and the commandments of God, such as are of eternal obligation, which may be chiefly designed..."


Matthew Henry
"... We are forbidden curiously to inquire into the secret counsels of God, and to determine concerning them. But we are directed and encouraged, diligently to seek into that which God has made known. He has kept back nothing that is profitable for us, but only that of which it is good for us to be ignorant. The end of all Divine revelation is, not to furnish curious subjects of speculation and discourse, but that we may do all the words of this law, and be blessed in our deed. This, the Bible plainly reveals; further than this, man cannot profitably go. By this light he may live and die comfortably, and be happy for ever...."

We are told "not to go there"

Romans 11:33 GW
33 God's riches, wisdom, and knowledge are so deep that it is impossible to explain his decisions or to understand his ways.

2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2 Timothy 2:15-18 KJV
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

1 Corinthians 3:1-5 KJV
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

John 16:12 KJV
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Hebrews 5:11-14 KJV
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.