Jesus = Messiah = Sin offering for mankind - is this correct?

[BobRyan]

In one scenario -- Jesus is a good Jewish teacher - Rabbi - who was seeking to do good and teach scripture accurately - then in a strange twist of events gets accused and killed by the Roman government.

The other scenario - is that the OT predicts him as the sin offering, and he himself insists that he is on a mission and it requires that he be crucified long before the Romans come after him or anyone comes after him on any sort of legal charges.

But if you obey the Law, guarantee is provided that you don't need forgiveness. Get the Logic of this statement?

I agree completely. But all have sinned - even coveting "thought crimes" are a sin. In the OT (Tanakh) they had animal sacrifices to deal with the sin - in the NT we have the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ according to Hebrews 10.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross had nothing to do with redemption of Mankind. Jesus was crucified on a political charge of insurrection for having allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem. Hence, Pilate's command to nail Jesus' verdict on the top of his cross which read INRI
as the reason why he was crucified.(Luke 19:37-40)

Tanakh predicts Christ in 27 A.D. and says he will be sin offering.

Jesus was the Messiah - Daniel 9:24-27 says that 490 from the decree to restore Jerusalem which happens around 457 B.C. until the Messiah is 483 years (so then 27 A.D Christ is baptized) - then 3.5 years later the Messiah is cut off (Christ is crucified). We are long past that time.

Isaiah 53 says the Messiah is the "sin offering"


2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.


4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

===========================

Sin offering in the Tanakh is always a blood sacrifice - pure unblemished animal sacrifice.

Lev 17
11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

============== summary

Is 53
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Jeremiah 23
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus - the Messiah gives his life for the sins of the world.

John 6:35-58
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

... 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 1:29
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


All these things said about Christ before the cross.

After the cross we have this ---

1 John 2:2
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Notice what happens at Jesus' arrest.

Matthew 26
47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.

50 Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

55 In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus - the Messiah came to die for the sins of the world.

Matthew 16

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

 

[AvgJoe]

Jesus = Messiah = Sin offering for mankind - is this correct?

Yes.

 

[Shibolet]

Jesus - the Messiah came to die for the sins of the world.

Two Prophets disagree with you. Ezekiel and Habakkuk. Ezekiel says that no one can die for the sins of another if you read Ezekiel 18:3,20 and Habakkuk
says that the Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE; to save His Anointed One."
(Habakkuk 3:13) That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Besides, the Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[Shibolet]

Jesus - the Messiah gives his life for the sins of the world.

John 6:35-58
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

I would like to comment about verse 40 above:

1 - "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him..." Now, please, open the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach and tell us what the Father said about His son. "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that He may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) Now, look at the Son and believe in him!

2 - '...shall have eternal life." There is nothing eternal about man other than the grave if you read Psalm 49:12. Eternity belongs with HaShem only. Psalm
41:14 "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel from eternity to eternity."

3 - "...and I will raise them up at the last day." According to the Prophets of the Most High, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

 

[BobRyan]

I would like to comment about verse 40 above:

1 - "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him..." Now, please, open the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach and tell us what the Father said about His son. "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that He may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) Now, look at the Son and believe in him!

2 - '...shall have eternal life." There is nothing eternal about man other than the grave if you read Psalm 49:12. Eternity belongs with HaShem only. Psalm
41:14 "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel from eternity to eternity."

3 - "...and I will raise them up at the last day." According to the Prophets of the Most High, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

"God alone possess immortality" 1 Timothy 6:16

God alone is from "Eternity to Eternity" -- eternity past to eternity future.

But at the resurrection
"This MORTAL shall put in immortality"

1 Corinthians 15
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

True - even in old testament - Tanakh doctrine.
...

(This is not the topic of "Sin offering" -- of the Messiah to be the sin offering so I am starting a thread on the subject of the statements on resurrection and receiving immortality -- in the Tanakh, in Jesus' teaching etc)

see this thread for the answer to the post -- "Tanakh and pre-cross teaching of Christ on resurrection, immortality" Today at 10:54 AM #1

 

[BobRyan]

Two Prophets disagree with you. Ezekiel and Habakkuk. Ezekiel says that no one can die for the sins of another if you read Ezekiel 18:3,20 and Habakkuk
says that the Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE; to save His Anointed One."
(Habakkuk 3:13) That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Besides, the Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Under the Tanakh - the animal is dying for the human all day long -- which is a mere symbol of the reality in Christ.

So while it is true that justice even in the OT does not allow for the innocent to suffer in the place of the guilty -- it is not true that they did not have a vicarious atoning sacrifice model for sin.

All have sinned - "The wages of sin is death" - that means no salvation for anyone. If there is no Isaiah 53 Gospel.

But Isaiah 53 predicts the Messiah, the suffering servant - as a "sin offering".

For justice to be served when the death penalty is demanded - not only does death take place but the criminal is removed.

In the Isaiah 53 Gospel model - the Messiah dies as the "sin offering" according to the text - but more than this - the sinner dies, the new birth takes place - the new heart, the stony heart removed and a new heart is given. Ezekiel 36:26

Ez 36 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

The NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33

 

[gadar perets]

I would like to comment about verse 40 above:

1 - "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him..." Now, please, open the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach and tell us what the Father said about His son. "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that He may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) Now, look at the Son and believe in him!

The fact that Israel is YHWH's firstborn son does not preclude the fact that YHWH also has an "only begotten Son" (Messiah Yeshua).

2 - '...shall have eternal life." There is nothing eternal about man other than the grave if you read Psalm 49:12. Eternity belongs with HaShem only. Psalm
41:14 "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel from eternity to eternity."

Daniel 12:1-3 speaks of eternal life for some dead.

3 - "...and I will raise them up at the last day." According to the Prophets of the Most High, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

1 Kings 17:17-24 and 2 Kings 4:32-37 proves you wrong. The Almighty can resurrect anyone He chooses at any time He chooses. All who believe in Yeshua will be resurrected unto eternal life. I hope you will be among us.

 

[BobRyan]

I would like to comment about verse 40 above:

1 - "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him..." Now, please, open the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach and tell us what the Father said about His son. "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that He may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) Now, look at the Son and believe in him!

You seem to be making the point that the "Son of God" is Israel - God's people.

In which case - as the OP points out -- you have a problem in Isaiah 53 because there the Messiah dies for the sins of "my people".

=======================================

Isaiah 53 says the Messiah is the "sin offering"


2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.


4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.[/QUOTE]

============

You seem to be making the point that the "Son of God" is Israel - God's people -- yet it is God's people that have sinned according to Isaiah 53 - and the Messiah dies for them - as a sin offering.

 

[Shibolet]

You seem to be making the point that the "Son of God" is Israel - God's people. In which case - as the OP points out -- you have a problem in Isaiah 53 because there the Messiah dies for the sins of "my people". Isaiah 53 says the Messiah is the "sin offering"

Wrong BobRyan, I am not a second Paul to make the point he made that Jesus was the son of God if you read Acts 9:20. My point that the Son of God is Israel was already made by HaShem Himself when He said, "Israel is My Son, so let My Son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23)

Now, as Isaiah 53 is concerned, I have no problem with it. If you read Ezekiel 18:3,20, no one can die for the sins of another. Jesus was a loyal Jew and, I am sure he would not contradict the Prophets of the Most High. BTW, would you please provide me with the verse in Isaiah 53 that the Messiah dies for the sins of my people?

Let me explain to you how the Messiah was the "sin offering." Every year at Yom Kippur the High Priest would send the Scapegoat Eastward through the desert to Azazel which today I understand was Assyria. (Leviticus 16:1-10) How did that prophetic festival get fulfilled? When, according to Amos 5:2, Israel fell at the hands of the Assyrians and qua Scapegoat was taken Eastward through the desert to Assyria. That's when HaShem rejected the Tabernacle of Joseph aka the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78:67-70; Jeremiah 31:35-37) True that we continued with the celebration of Yom Kippur but no longer as a prophetic event but in memory of the redemption of Judah by Israel the Suffering Servant. Bottom line is that the Suffering Servant was the sin offering not by physical death but by being removed from the Land of Israel and become one with the Gentiles.

 

[Shibolet]

The fact that Israel is YHWH's firstborn son does not preclude the fact that YHWH also has an "only begotten Son" (Messiah Yeshua).

Daniel 12:1-3 speaks of eternal life for some dead.

1 Kings 17:17-24 and 2 Kings 4:32-37 proves you wrong. The Almighty can resurrect anyone He chooses at any time He chooses. All who believe in Yeshua will be resurrected unto eternal life. I hope you will be among us.

Mr. Perets, how could HaShem have a "firstborn son" and an "only begotten son?" another paradox! Of course it precludes the claim that Yeshua was the only begotten son! But don't worry! I agree that Yeshua was a son of God but as part of Israel whom HaShem said, "Israel is My Son." (Exodus 4:22,23)

No, Daniel was a Jew and he would not speak about literal eternal life. The reference of eternal life here is an euphemism for those who return to Israel at the end of the exile or eternal abhorrence for those who choose to remain in exile. BTW many more chose to continue in the Diaspora than those who decided to make Aliyah.

No sir, the quotes above you have posted from I and II Kings do not at all prove me wrong. The prophet was dealing with a case of resuscitation after a child got a sunstroke in the field with his father.

I agree with you that the Almighty can do every thing He wants but one, the thing you wish He did or should have done. Things don't work that way, sir!
I believe in Yeshua for what he really was, not for what the NT has made him to be. And last but not least, there is nothing eternal about man but the grave. (Psalm 49:12)

 

[Shibolet]

Under the Tanakh - the animal is dying for the human all day long -- which is a mere symbol of the reality in Christ.

According to whom, you! That's evidence of Christian preconceived notions.

But Isaiah 53 predicts the Messiah, the suffering servant - as a "sin offering".

Yes, but not of physical death, but of an exile without end, although to be uprooted from the Land of Israel is the same as to being assigned graves among the nations.

In the Isaiah 53 Gospel model - the Messiah dies as the "sin offering" according to the text - but more than this - the sinner dies, the new birth takes place - the new heart, the stony heart removed and a new heart is given. Ezekiel 36:26

Ez 36 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

True, but not all are ready to attain to those Divine gifts. We must exercise our Freewill into being more receptive.

All have sinned - "The wages of sin is death" - that means no salvation for anyone. If there is no Isaiah 53 Gospel.

No sir, the wages of sin is not death but the fact that we have been born. If you don't believe it, tell me why babies die when they have never sinned.

 

[Shibolet]

"God alone possess immortality" 1 Timothy 6:16 God alone is from "Eternity to Eternity" -- eternity past to eternity future.

See what I mean? Why then try to delude people with promises of eternal life
when eternity belongs with HaShem only?

But at the resurrection "This MORTAL shall put in immortality"

There will be no resurrection. If you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc. All the Prophets of the Most High are of one accord, that once dead no one will ever return from the grave.

(This is not the topic of "Sin offering" -- of the Messiah to be the sin offering so I am starting a thread on the subject of the statements on resurrection and receiving immortality -- in the Tanakh, in Jesus' teaching etc)

Go ahead and start a thread on resurrection and receiving immortality but do not forget the true statement you shared with us at the head of this post of yours above that "God alone possesses immortality."

 

[gadar perets]

Mr. Perets, how could HaShem have a "firstborn son" and an "only begotten son?" another paradox! Of course it precludes the claim that Yeshua was the only begotten son! But don't worry! I agree that Yeshua was a son of God but as part of Israel whom HaShem said, "Israel is My Son." (Exodus 4:22,23)

Israel was not an "only begotten son", but an adopted son. YHWH chose them as His son (Ezekiel 20:5). Yeshua was begotten through the power of the Holy Spirit as no other man ever was. He had no earthly father, but YHWH was/is his Father through a divine miracle. No paradox, just truth.

No, Daniel was a Jew and he would not speak about literal eternal life. The reference of eternal life here is an euphemism for those who return to Israel at the end of the exile or eternal abhorrence for those who choose to remain in exile. BTW many more chose to continue in the Diaspora than those who decided to make Aliyah.

Daniel was a prophet who would, indeed, speak about a literal eternal life that will take place in the latter days. Job knew there would be a resurrection of the dead (Job 19:25-27) as did Isaiah, Ezekiel and Hosea (Isaiah 26:19; Ezekiel 37:1-12; Hosea 13:14). That is not to mention all the NT writers that confirm this truth.

No sir, the quotes above you have posted from I and II Kings do not at all prove me wrong. The prophet was dealing with a case of resuscitation after a child got a sunstroke in the field with his father.

1Ki 17:17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
1Ki 17:18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
1Ki 17:19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
1Ki 17:20 And he cried unto YHWH, and said, O YHWH my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
1Ki 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto YHWH, and said, O YHWH my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
1Ki 17:22 And YHWHheard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
1Ki 17:23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son lives.

2Ki 4:17 And the woman conceived, and bare a son at that season that Elisha had said unto her, according to the time of life.
2Ki 4:18 And when the child was grown, it fell on a day, that he went out to his father to the reapers.
2Ki 4:19 And he said unto his father, My head, my head. And he said to a lad, Carry him to his mother.
2Ki 4:20 And when he had taken him, and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died.
...
2Ki 4:32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.
2Ki 4:33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto YHWH.
2Ki 4:34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm (it was cold from death).
2Ki 4:35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
2Ki 4:36 And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.
2Ki 4:37 Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.
​

I agree with you that the Almighty can do every thing He wants but one, the thing you wish He did or should have done. Things don't work that way, sir!

The Scriptures I have cited and the commentary I have given are true. YHWH rased the dead through the prophet. He will again raise the dead through the prophet Messiah Yeshua.

I believe in Yeshua for what he really was, not for what the NT has made him to be. And last but not least, there is nothing eternal about man but the grave. (Psalm 49:12)

In your effort to reject the NT at all costs, you reject the clear writings of the Tanakh. You pluck verses out of context like Psalm 49:12 which is talking about the wicked and men that do not walk according to YHWH's will. Keep reading the context:

Psa 49:13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.​

 

[BobRyan]

I would like to comment about verse 40 above:

1 - "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him..." Now, please, open the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach and tell us what the Father said about His son. "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that He may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) Now, look at the Son and believe in him!

You seem to be making the point that the "Son of God" is Israel - God's people.

In which case - as the OP points out -- you have a problem in Isaiah 53 because there the Messiah dies for the sins of "my people"....

You seem to be making the point that the "Son of God" is Israel - God's people -- yet it is God's people that have sinned according to Isaiah 53 - and the Messiah dies for them - as a sin offering.

Wrong BobRyan, I am not a second Paul to make the point he made that Jesus was the son of God if you read Acts 9:20. My point that the Son of God is Israel was already made by HaShem Himself when He said, "Israel is My Son, so let My Son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23)

You seem to be agreeing with my summary of your position that "Son of God" is Israel.

But my argument is both-and and not either-or. I am not saying that Exodus 4 cannot also be true.

I am saying that in Isaiah 53 'my people' (Israel) are having their sins paid for by the Messiah - who is "a sin offering" thus the Son of David, the Son of Man, the Son of God - the Messiah cannot be simply "my people Israel" in Isaiah 53. That option does not work.

Now, as Isaiah 53 is concerned, I have no problem with it. If you read Ezekiel 18:3,20, no one can die for the sins of another. Jesus was a loyal Jew and, I am sure he would not contradict the Prophets of the Most High. BTW, would you please provide me with the verse in Isaiah 53 that the Messiah dies for the sins of my people?

Isaiah 53 says the Messiah is the "sin offering"


2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.


4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
..
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
...
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

You suggest that in Isaiah 53 Israel is the suffering servant - suffering for Judah - taking Judah's punishment.

But in fact the northern kingdom suffered its own punishment in Assyrian captivity from which it never recovered.

Judah suffered its own punishment by Babylonian captivity - then held captive by the Medes and Persians, then Greece, then Roman empire captives. Then in 70 A.D. temple destroyed.. then later Hadrian wiped it out.

But in Isaiah 53 the Messiah is suffering for sins of God's people without reference to Israel or Judah. And suffering as a "sin offering" - in the Bible a sin offering is always killed.

Let me explain to you how the Messiah was the "sin offering." Every year at Yom Kippur the High Priest would send the Scapegoat Eastward through the desert to Azazel which today I understand was Assyria. (Leviticus 16:1-10) How did that prophetic festival get fulfilled? When, according to Amos 5:2, Israel fell at the hands of the Assyrians and qua Scapegoat was taken Eastward through the desert to Assyria. That's when HaShem rejected the Tabernacle of Joseph aka the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78:67-70; Jeremiah 31:35-37) True that we continued with the celebration of Yom Kippur but no longer as a prophetic event but in memory of the redemption of Judah by Israel the Suffering Servant. Bottom line is that the Suffering Servant was the sin offering not by physical death but by being removed from the Land of Israel and become one with the Gentiles.

On Yom Kippur - Leviticus 16 -- there are two goats -- the Lord's Goat - a sin offering - slain as a burnt offering.

and there is the scapegoat which is never called a sin offering in Lev 16 once it is selected as the scapegoat.

 

[BobRyan]

Sin offering on Leviticus 16 - Yom Kippur.

The scapegoat is not the sin offering

Lev 16
6 “Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household. 7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 8 He is to cast lots for the two goats—one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

...

15 “He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. 16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.

18 “Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He shall take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19 He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

20 “When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.

 

[BobRyan]

Go ahead and start a thread on resurrection and receiving immortality but do not forget the true statement you shared with us at the head of this post of yours above that "God alone possesses immortality."

Ok - that thread is started -- and begins with the "God alone possesses immortality" statement of 1 Timothy 6.

 

[BobRyan]

I am saying that in Isaiah 53 'my people' (Israel) are having their sins paid for by the Messiah - who is "a sin offering" thus the Son of David, the Son of Man, the Son of God - the Messiah cannot be simply "my people Israel" in Isaiah 53. That option does not work.

God warns the northern kingdom repeatedly through the prophetc that their sins will bring about their destruction - and then it does at the hand of the Assyrians.

Then we have the warning of God to the southern kingdom that their rebellion will bring about their captivity - which it does in the case of the Babylonians.

Yes, but not of physical death, but of an exile without end, although to be uprooted from the Land of Israel is the same as to being assigned graves among the nations. .

All texts in the Tanakh require that "sin offering" is a blood sacrifice that the sin offering "does not survive".

Lev 17
11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

 

[Shibolet]

Jesus = Messiah = sin offering for Mankind; is this correct?

No, it is not correct! Jesus for more than one reason cannot be the Messiah or sin offering for Mankind because he is dead and, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 once dead one can no longer take part in the things of the living. Another reason, is that when he was alive, he could be Messiah but only as part of Israel aka the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Besides, Jesus could not be a sin offering for Mankind because he could not contradict the Prophets of the Most High who were inspired by the Lord to teach that no one can sacrifice himself as a sin offering for another. (Ezekiel 18:3,20}