Jesus' message: Not what you would expect.

[Evangelion]

Go hard, ATAT.

 

[Parakaleo]

Christ can't relate to me (as a medator) unless he is human and can't relate to God the Father (as a medaitor) unless he is God.

So... a mediator between a king and a pauper has to be 100% king and 100% pauper in order to relate to both.  And because there is only one king, then the mediator *must be* the king.  I get it! It's the only logical extension....

Oh that's right. It's not *meant* to make sense. Sorry, I forgot.    

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by ATAT
In Mat 6, Jesus gives his model prayer.

It contains a formula for salvation that is not really what modern Christianity describes.

In studying the NT, I've found that Jesus is consistant and constant with this message.

His message is that the keys to heaven, the method to getting to heaven is to forgive others.

That's sounds innocent enough, until you realize what it is, and what it is not.

That all sounds nice and all but it sounds like salvation by works to me.

Then when Jesus told Nicodemus, "You must be born again" I guess he didn't know what he was talking about huh?

Where does repentance come in?

 

[Apologist]

Another person wasting our time arguing against Christ's deity I see.

Here's what the early church fathers believed:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever"

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water"

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever"
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'"

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. A disciple of Origen. Defended Christianity. He wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father"
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit."



SHORTER CATECHISM OF THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION STANDARDS

Question 6.

Question: How Many Persons are There in the Godhead?


Answer:

There are Three Persons in the Godhead: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; And These Three are One God, the Same in Substance, Equal in Power and Glory.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Nah, I think ATAT was saying that it is neccesary, but not sufficient. 

  Yes , it's Gods forgiveness that is both necessary and sufficient.

 

[ATAT]

 I'm arguing what Jesus taught:

 

He taught that if you forgive others, you will be forgiven.  Period.

 

If you don't forgive others, you won't be.

 

Someone asked where repentance comes in... well, if you forgive / love others, you have humbled yourself.

 

It's not repentance directly, but it's what Jesus was primarily worried about.  He hated the notion that someone felt superior to others.

 

Drop that, (proof when you help the sick, forgive those who have done wrong) that's absolute proof you have done at least what God requires.


 


<DIV class=SearchResults><SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Luke 23:34</SPAN>
Jesus said, "Father, <B>forgive</B> <B>them</B>, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. </DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>Now, that can't be 'You gotta believe I'm God up here to be forgiven.'&nbsp; </DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>Actually, that's Jesus - the man - trying to get into heaven.</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>As an someone who believes the law is valid, and looking at this story of a man who taught you don't have to keep the Sabbath laws any more (Mark 2:27-28), I think it is ironic that Jesus was given a death where he could not actually practice his own neo theology:&nbsp; </DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>He started this religion where you have to forgive people so you can be forgiven, then he's given a death where he can't forgive (past tense) the horror that is being done to him, until it is too late.</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>Sadly, Jesus was taught the problems of this new theology by his own death.</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>Up there on the cross, Jesus was tormented by the knowledge that he wasn't murdered, just yet, so he couldn't really forgive them until after he was dead... and then, of course, Jesus would be dead and unable to forgive them.</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>


<DIV class=SearchResults>Best to stick to the Word instead of making up your own 'improved' religion.</DIV>&nbsp;

 

[ATAT]

My point is that Jesus said:

A. Forgiving others is the key to gaining forgiveness from God.

That's not the same thing as

B. 'You gotta believe Jesus is God who died on the cross as your final sin atonement sacrifice.'

The two are not logically exclusive, but you could have someone doing A while being ignorant of or rejecting B, and you could have someone doing B being ignorant of or rejecting A.

Since Jesus taught A as both necessary and sufficient, and since he taught A as being all you need to do, this excludes the exotic story of needing God as a man on the cross.

Thank you for your question.

 

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday at 07:00 PM ATAT said this in Post #47 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=674579#post674579)

My point is that Jesus said:

A. Forgiving others is the key to gaining forgiveness from God.

That's not the same thing as

B. 'You gotta believe Jesus is God who died on the cross as your final sin atonement sacrifice.'

The two are not logically exclusive, but you could have someone doing A while being ignorant of or rejecting B, and you could have someone doing B being ignorant of or rejecting A.

Since Jesus taught A as both necessary and sufficient, and since he taught A as being all you need to do, this excludes the exotic story of needing God as a man on the cross.

Thank you for your question.

For everyone debating with ATAT. He claims to be an an ex-Christian, since 1984, now an Orthodox Jew. He feels he is qualified to interpret the Christian scriptures, i.e. the N.T., but appears to think that NO gentile, i.e. you and me, is qualified to interpret the T'nakh, i.e. Old Testament.

Having said that I turn now to the one verse posted. There are 31,172 verses in the KJV, only one has been posted. Those other 31,171 verses could not possibly have any relevance to the one verse posted could they?

• 
  kuwn epistreyav epi to idion exerama kai uv lousamenh eiv kulisma borborou

 

[OldShepherd]

9th February 2003 at 11:21 AM ATAT said this in Post #46 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=641494#post641494)

I'm arguing what Jesus taught:

He taught that if you forgive others, you will be forgiven.&nbsp; Period.

If you don't forgive others, you won't be.

False He did not teach that Period. He taught a LOT more than that for example have you ever heard of John 3:16-18?

It's not repentance directly, but it's what Jesus was primarily worried about.&nbsp; He hated the notion that someone felt superior to others.

Huh? Where do you get this nonsense? Where do you read that Jesus was worried or that He hated some notion or other?

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Now, that can't be 'You gotta believe I'm God up here to be forgiven.

The words on the cross are not the only words Jesus ever spoke!

• 
  John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
  18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As an someone who believes the law is valid, and looking at this story of a man who taught you don't have to keep the Sabbath laws any more (Mark 2:27-28), I think it is ironic that Jesus was given a death where he could not actually practice his own neo theology:

Neo theology my foot! Jesus taught nothing new. The Jews have always taught that the Sabbath was ONLY for Israel. The Talmud states that a gentile who observes a Sabbath, on any day of the week, shall be put to death.

He started this religion where you have to forgive people so you can be forgiven, then he's given a death where he can't forgive (past tense) the horror that is being done to him, until it is too late.

The standard Jewish anti-Christian diatribe. "He started a religion." Nonsense! where do you get the rest of this clap trap?

Sadly, Jesus was taught the problems of this new theology by his own death.

Sadly you don't have a clue. He and the T'nakh foretold His death as well as His resurrection, so where are the problems. If you are going to try to tell Christians what the B'rit Khadasha says the least you could do is read it first.

Up there on the cross, Jesus was tormented by the knowledge that he wasn't murdered, just yet, so he couldn't really forgive them until after he was dead... and then, of course, Jesus would be dead and unable to forgive them.

Oh and here the Jew who (thinks he) knows our scriptures better than we do, practices reading minds 2000 years later and 12000 miles away. Amazing. He can tell us what knowledge jesus was tormented by.

Best to stick to the Word instead of making up your own 'improved' religion.

More blasphemous false charges. How would you know? You haven't gotten anything right yet? Another misinformed, lock-step, rote memorized, diatribe regurgitated by yet another anti-Christian Rabbi.

 

[Future Man]

Another person wasting our time arguing against Christ's deity I see.

Have they given you the "..the Father is greater than I" ergo Jesus isn't God, yet?

Will the deity of Christ be under discussion in this thread?

Nice cite of the father's btw .

God bless--FM

 

[Future Man]

Now, that can't be 'You gotta believe I'm God up here to be forgiven.

Jesus quite emphatically states that belief in Him AND the Father is necessary for eternal life [John17:3]. Period.

Unless you want to echo the Jesus Seminar and assert that a very small percentage of the NT was spoken/written accurately, then you are in a rather futile position. In fact if you *do* echo the JS, you are fighting a futile battle.

God bless--FM

 

[OldShepherd]

16th June 2002 at 01:35 PM ATAT said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=215469#post215469)

In Mat 6, Jesus gives his model prayer.

It contains a formula for salvation that is not really what modern Christianity describes.

In studying the NT, I've found that Jesus is consistant and constant with this message.

His message is that the keys to heaven, the method to getting to heaven is to forgive others.

That's sounds innocent enough, until you realize what it is, and what it is not.

Jesus is clear, throughout the NT, and in context.

Mat 6:
9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. '
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Many other verses like this.

Ex, Luke 6:37 and many more.

Jesus himself follows his own advice on the cross.

Thank you for your attention.@@

And in the following pages @@ attempts to interpet the Christian scriptures for us. Because he apparently presumes that all Christians are stupid and we need him, an ex/anti-Christian Orthodox Jew, to tell us how to interpret our scriptures, i.e. the B'rit Khadasha, the New Covenant/Testament. He later asserts that Jesus came to start a new religion and other half baked undocumented nonsense. How about if we "stupid" Christians interpret this passage from Matthew BUT with a difference I am going to refer ONLY to Jewish sources, ie. the Talmud.

• 
  {r},"the kingdom of thy Messiah come". Christ alters the expression, leaves out the word "Messiah", and puts it thus, "thy kingdom come", to let them know that the Messiah was come; and that it was the kingdom of the Father, in the power of his grace, upon the souls of men, they must pray for and expect: however, he conformed to a rule of their’s in this, as well as in the former petition {s}; that
  
  “every blessing, or prayer, in which there is no, "mention made of the name", i.e. of God, is no prayer; and that every prayer, in which there is not, "the kingdom", is no prayer.”
  
  {t} Jews call the short prayer:
  
  “what is the short prayer? R. Eliezer says, "do thy will in heaven"; and give quietness of spirit, or acquiescence of spirit in thy will, to them that fear thee below.”
  
  
  {r} Seder Tephillot, fol. 128. 2. Ed. Basil.
  {s} T. Bab. Beracot, fol. 40. 2.
  {t} Ib. fol. 29. 2.
  
  {u} Jews:
  
  “The necessities of thy people are great, and their knowledge short; let it be thy good will and pleasure, O Lord, our God, that thou wouldst give to everyone, "what is sufficient for his sustenance", and to every one’s body what it wants.”
  
  “Says R. Jose {w}, all the children of faith seek "every day", "to ask their food" of the Lord, and to pray a prayer for it.”
  
  {u} T. Bab. Beracot, fol. 29. 2.
  {w} Zohar in Exod. fol. 26. 2.
  {x} Jarchi in Job, vi. 7.
  
  {y} by the Targumist:
  
  “and hear thou the petition of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make before this place; and do thou receive it from the place of the house of thy Shekinah, from heaven; and do thou accept their prayer, "and forgive their debts".”
  
  So Joseph’s brethren signify to him, that it was their father’s orders to say unto him, "forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin"; which is rendered by the Chaldee paraphrasts {z}, "forgive the debts" of thy brethren, and their sins.
  
  {y} Targum in 2 Chron. vi. 21.
  {z} Targum Onkelos & Jon. ben Uzziel in Gen. l. 17. Vid. Targum in 1 Chron. iv. 18. & in Cant. i. 1. & in Gen. iv. 13. & passim.
  
  Such a petition as this is often to be observed in the prayers of the Jews {a},
  
  "do not lead me" neither into sin, nor into transgression and iniquity, "nor into temptation", or "into the hands of temptation";”
  
  This petition, with the Jews, is in this {b} form:
  
  "but deliver me from an evil accident", and diseases; and do not trouble me with evil dreams, and evil imaginations.”
  
  
  R. Juda, after his prayer, or at the close of it, as is this petition, used {c} to say;
  
  “let it be thy good pleasure, 0 Lord our God, and the God of our fathers, "that thou wouldst deliver us" from impudent men, and impudence; from an "evil" man, and from an "evil" accident; from the "evil" imagination, i.e. the corruption of nature; from an "evil" companion; from an "evil" neighbour; and from Satan the destroyer; and from hard judgment; and from an hard adversary, whether he is the son of the covenant, or is not the son of the covenant.”
  
  {d},
  “"for the kingdom is thine", and thou shalt reign in glory for ever and ever.”
  
  The usual response at the close of prayers, and reading the Shema, instead of "Amen", was {e} this:
  
  “Blessed be the name of the glory of his kingdom, for ever and ever.”
  
  {a} Seder Tephillot, fol. 3. 1. Ed. Basil. fol. 4. 2. Ed. Amstelod. Shaare Zion, fol. 73. 1. T. Bab. Beracot, fol. 60. 2.
  {b} T. Bab. Beracot, fol. 60. 2.
  {c} Ib. fol. 16. 2.
  {d} Seder Tephillot, fol. 280. 1. Ed. Basil.
  {e} Misn. Yoma, c. 4. sect. 1. & 6. 2. T. Bab. Pesachim, fol. 56. 1. & Taanith, fol. 16. 2. Seder Tephillot, fol. 70. 2. Ed. Basil.

How about that? This man that @@ claims came to destroy the law and start a new religion taught his disciples a prayer from the Talmud.