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Jesus' message: Not what you would expect.

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by ATAT, Jun 15, 2002.

  1. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    In Mat 6, Jesus gives his model prayer.

    It contains a formula for salvation that is not really what modern Christianity describes.

    In studying the NT, I've found that Jesus is consistant and constant with this message.

    His message is that the keys to heaven, the method to getting to heaven is to forgive others.

    That's sounds innocent enough, until you realize what it is, and what it is not.

    Jesus is clear, throughout the NT, and in context.

    Mat 6:
    9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
    " 'Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,
    10 your kingdom come,
    your will be done
    on earth as it is in heaven.
    11 Give us today our daily bread.
    12 Forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from the evil one. '
    14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
    15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins
    .

    Many other verses like this.

    Ex, Luke 6:37 and many more.

    Jesus himself follows his own advice on the cross.

    Thank you for your attention.

    @@
     
  2. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    Very well said! Amen....It is truely important that we forgive one another, love one another, and live according to the teachings of Jesus. It is more important to live according to the Bible than to spend all our time trying to prove our interpretations or our denomination is the right one. We need to be righteous in actions not in knowledge. Jesus died for us but He also lived for us to learn how to live.
    Love and God Bless!
    Messenger
     
  3. goodnewsinc

    goodnewsinc Senior Member Supporter

    +92
    Christian
  4. SimpleChristian

    SimpleChristian Member

    194
    +0
    Sorry...ATAT...I just gotta ask....are you saying that ALL a person has to do to be 'saved' or 'get to Heaven' is to forgive other people?
     
  5. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Nah, I think ATAT was saying that it is neccesary, but not sufficient.  :pray:
     
  6. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +2
    Forgiveness is a central part of Jesus' message...that is definitely not unexpected...what would be unexpected is if you would think forgiveness is possible(that is forgiveness of your sins and mine) without a sacrifice...
     
  7. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    I'm not saying I believe the man.

     

    I'm saying Jesus never claimed you had to believe that he was God who died on the cross.

     

    Jesus clearly says you have to forgive others to be forgiven. 

    Luke 6:37 & Mat 6 = forgiving others is sufficient.

    If you do, you will be.

     

    If you don't, you won't.

     

    He argues against sacrifices.

     

    The greatest irony in history is that Jesus went around saying he wasn't God (even at John 8 & John 10).  He always called himself 'Son of Man' or 'Son of God'.

     

    Never something like 'brother' of God.

     

    That's the greatest irony in history.

    Thank you for your posts.

     

    ATAT
     
  8. Jeanna

    Jeanna New Member

    28
    +0
    Matthew 6:5
    "And when you pray; do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their just reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you n eed before you ask him."
    "This then is how you should pray:
    "Our Father in Heaven,
    hallowed be yourname.
    your kingdom come,
    your will be done
    on earth as it is in heaven.
    Give us today our daily bread.
    Forgive us our debts
    as we also have forgiven our
    debtors.
    And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from the evil one."
    For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also gorvie you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins".

    I am in no way a biblical scholar, but when I read this I don't see that Jesus is talking about salvation. I see it as talking about praying to God in a sincere manner & not to glorify yourself by having others see & hear how eloquantly you can pray (you in general terms, not meaning you personally). I also see it showing us how to repent our sins; even after we are saved we sin by nature & need to repent them to God.

    John 10:7 says:
    "Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The theif comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

    Jesus said pointblank, "whoever enters through me will be saved".
    I am embarrassed to admit that I don't the exact scripture, so someone help me out....Jesus says I am the way, the Truth & the Light, no man comes to the Father except through me.
    I agree we have to forgive others, I don't agree that it is sufficient.
     
  9. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    Jesus says, clearly,
    Mat 6

    For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also gorvie you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins".



    You want to be forgiven? Forgive others. Don't want to be forgiven? Don't.

    Period.

    Not a word about the cross.

    Not a word about believing Jesus is God.

    Few Christians listen to Jesus. They usually listen to others after Jesus.

    Jesus tells you his formula for salvation:

    Forgive others.

    He says it in different ways, in different contexts, and even practiced what he preached on the cross.

    Not a claim to be God, not a claim to be a sacrifice.  Rather, a claim to be a leader who was willing to be killed for teaching his students. Notice that the sheep never 'sacrifice' their shepherd?

    If you want to believe in Jesus, then you want to listen to what he died for, his teaching that you must forgive to be forgiven.

    John 14:6
    ... "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


    Well, few Christians care that Jesus himself taught what his 'way' was: You have to forgive others.  He was extremely clear, and in context on this point:

    Mat 6:14-15; 18:21-22,34-35;
    Mark 11:25
    Luke 1:77; 6:37; 7:47; 11:4; 17:3-4; 23:34; 24:47
    John 20:23


    Remember, the Gospels are a short set of books, short short short.  Jesus manages to give his salvation plan 12 times.  That's an average of 3 times per Gospel.

    How come you don't believe it?  (I myself don't claim to be a follower of Jesus any more.)
    That's Jesus talking.


    Check out then verses if you really want to fulfill John 3:16, which says you should believe in Jesus... 


    Do you want to believe in him or not?

    If you do, I'm not saying you should, but you ought to glance at what he wanted you to believe.

    Want to fulfill John 3:16?  Want to believe in Jesus (as opposed to the Christian who gave the speach at your Church last week?)

    Then you gotta at least know what the man Jesus said to believe.

    We're talking 3 minutes to discover the what Jesus taught, how he wanted you to get forgiven.

    Jeanna, thank you for your post.


    Online Christian bible link:

    http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible/

    It works pretty good if you want to do your own research.
     
  10. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +2
    Jesus did not say, "My way is the way"...He said "I am the way..."

    Show me "in context" Jesus arguing against the sacrifice of Himself...There was a problem with the ritual that was taking place in the temple...

    I bet you could show me a verse that talks about Jesus and the Father being ONE as well, but you seem to want to skip any of those.

    Jesus was also described many times as the "lamb", in both the O.T. and the N.T. He laid down His Life as a sacrifice...The Perfect Sacrifice...unlike the sacrifices of atonement that were going on in the temple...His sacrifice was to bring complete and full salvation because of His perfection...

    Also, how do you reckon with the first chapter of John when it plainly discusses Jesus length of days being unending...

    You take away Jesus' divinity...you take away Christianity's uniqueness...that's a ploy that will and has been undertaken forever, because of jealousy, but will not succeed...
     
  11. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    The meaning is the same.
    His speeches are frequent and consistent with the same message: Forgive to be forgiven.

    If he says you have to forgive to be forgiven, and then he says ‘I am the way…’ what is the logical conclusion? I would conclude the man is referring to his teachings.
    What else?

    If MLK Jr said “I am the way…” you’d assume his political philosophy.

    Jesus taught X. That’s his ‘way’.


    Jesus never thought of himself as a literal sin atonement sacrifice.
    He often taught that you should have compassion for your neighbor, and that was better than a sacrifice.

    Mark 12
    32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
    34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

    If the man excluded ‘all’ sacrifices, and Jesus liked the reply, never corrected the reply, then that’s as close to the refutation that we can get.

    Jesus was willing to die, if need be, to keep on teaching.  Clearly, Jesus was on a path that required either he give up his teachings, or be killed for them.

    That much he could see.


    Mat 26
    38 Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
    39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
    40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
    42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
    43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
    45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

    Jesus does not see his death as integral to his teaching. He doesn’t picture his death as a literal sin atonement sacrifice.
    Rather, his dangerous teaching is going to lead to his execution.
    Judas is not playing a valued part in the redemption story.
    Judas is betraying Jesus’ goal, which is to keep on teaching (even at to the point of death.)

    ‘Sacrifices’ are seen to be the willingness to give up one’s life for the teachings that you have to treat men equally = have compassion on them = do not judge them.

    Works? Is it

    A - what you do, or

    B - your belief that Jesus is God?

    Let's see:


    Mat 16
    24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
    25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
    26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
    27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

    Verse 24 above certainly shows that we can be like Jesus in the sacrifice of our lives.
    That doesn’t fit with Jesus being the ‘final’ sacrifice. 

    Mark 8:34
    Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

    Luke 9:23
    Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.


    Where does Jesus say it was just the Temple, and not all sacrifices?



    Au contraire:

    John clearly writes Jesus as using the phrase as a group with one goal, not that the members of the group are 100% the same a la the Trinity / Tuvix concept…


    John 17:11
    I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.


    How is that possible if Jesus means a 'Trinity'?  It isn't.

    John 17:21
    that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

    'just as'?  The disciples are to merge into one entity?  No.  There is no 'Trinity.'  It's not even mentioned.


    John 17:22
    I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

    Transporter malfunction?  Or did the non-Jews misunderstand what Jews mean by being a Son of God?    We are all sons of God.  They have a different back ground, so 'Son of God' means something else in the non-Jewish context.  That has been imposed upon Jesus' words after the NT.


    John 1
    28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
    29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
    32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

    This is not a description of a ‘sin atonement sacrifice.’
    How will Jesus ‘take away the sins of the world?’
    Why not read what Jesus himself says on the subject of being forgiven from your sins?
    Jesus himself describes how to be forgiven from your sins.
    Forgive others. Do not judge them. Do not condemn them. (Christian theology is in stark contrast to this last part. Christian theology condemns people to hell if they sin and do not accept Jesus as God as a literal sin atonement sacrifice.)


    Luke 10:3
    Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.

    Not a description of a sin atonement sacrifice at all.


    John 21:15
    When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

    The idea that ‘lamb’ is a code for a literal sin atonement sacrifice does not hold up.
    John 21:15 says that his followers are the ‘lambs.’


    All other NT mentions of 'lamb' are of literal lambs (the Passover sacrifice, which was not a sin atonement sacrifice... even Jesus had to bring his lamb sacrifice or be cut off from God)

    What is the verse that says that if I believe Jesus is God who was literally sacrificed, it is THAT which saves me? What is the verse that says I must believe that at all?

    If you follow what Jesus taught, you have to forgive others. End of story.

    What are you talking about? You have the wrong chapter.  Are you talking about Isaiah 53?  (and, Jesus' days did come to an end.  He died and went to heaven, had no children...)

     

    ?

     

    Jesus did that every time he called himself ‘Son of God’ and Son of man.

    Both phrases are code for man in contrast to God throughout the Jewish Scriptures.
    Many verses upon request, in context, on point.

    I hope to help stop people from worshipping a guy.
    That’s a biblical sin to everyone. Don’t risk it.


    I’ll have to agree with you on that.


    Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, …

    Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

    Deuteronomy 5:9...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, …

    Deuteronomy 6:15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God …

    Deuteronomy 32:16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.

    Deuteronomy 32:21 They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols.

    Joshua 24:19…He is a holy God; he is a jealous God.

    Ezekiel 8:3...where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

    Nahum 1:2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;

    For a dissenting opinion:

    Zechariah 14:9
    The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord , and his name the only name.

    Thank you for your post.
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    *sigh* yet another thread on how you think you can rationalize away the truth that Jesus is God..how sad.

    "Jesus did that every time he called himself ‘Son of God’ and Son of man. "

    *sigh* yet ANOTHER person that doesn't realize what that title means. It means authority, not a inferior/superior or biological relationship. Christ is God. The bible makes that quite clear.
     
  13. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    Would you like to examine the typical Christian sources and see if they make that claim in context?

    Really?

    Are you sure?

    Job 25
    4 How then can a man be righteous before God?
    How can one born of woman be pure?
    5 If even the moon is not bright
    and the stars are not pure in his eyes,
    6 how much less man, who is but a maggot-
    a son of man, who is only a worm!"

    Men have authority. Jesus even thinks he has great authority.
    But that don’t make him God.

    That might make him claiming to be a mediator, or a super-type prophet.

    Never a ‘brother’ of God.

    1 Timothy 2:5
    For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    Notice how the one mediator (Jesus) is not the same as the one God?

    Thank you for your post.
     
  14. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

    +173
    Protestant
    Single
    how can forgiveness be sufficient for salvation only? Jesus has said repeatedly many times that we can only be saved through him. If you forgave others yet not believe in the creator, you still won't go to heaven.

    aye, you're arguing against the trinity. Maybe you'll find this thread interesting then:

    http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6336

    The Father. son, holy spirit = one (in the Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology forum)
     
  15. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Really?

    Are you sure? "

    Yup, in accordance with sharing who we are Christ was a Son of Man (notice the capitalization) and in accordance with Pslams 2 he was the Son of God. It is a title of authority.

    "Notice how the one mediator (Jesus) is not the same as the one God? "

    Yes, I do because the only person that can mediate is someone who has walked in both shoes. Christ is God and also man, its call incarnation. Christ can't relate to me (as a medator) unless he is human and can't relate to God the Father (as a medaitor) unless he is God. Do some background work on that passage.

    What is funny is that Christ is ALWAYS refered to as the Savior by Paul, but yet something YOU over look in that book is Paul's openning and the wording in that openning.

    "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our savior..." Hmm..no God is our savior..concicidence..I think not. Also Christ says he will resurrect himself and in other passages it says God will ressurrect him. Umm..why is that? Because CHRIST IS GOD.
     
  16. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    In English, if I say I am going to study Math ‘through Professor Y’ that is not a claim that Prof Y is God.

    The word ‘through’ does not connote a ‘God’ status upon the indirect object.


    .
    Isn’t that in contrast with what Jesus actually said?


    Luke 6:37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.


    Mat 6:if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

    Blessed-one, thank you for your post.

    There are no capital letters in Hebrew.

    Psalms 2 is referring to King David. Proof:

    Psalm 89
    20 I have found David my servant;
    with my sacred oil I have anointed him.
    27 I will also appoint him my firstborn,
    the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
    28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
    and my covenant with him will never fail.

    Also ref:

    Hos 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,
    and out of Egypt I called my son.


    Do you have a verse to support that?

    I have one to the contrary:

    Jer 33
    23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side
    as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
    to tell a man what is right for him,

    Can ‘an angel’ be God, too?


    The word, ‘incarnation’ does not appear even once in the NIV, KJV, NASB, YLT.

    Let me know where you got that.

    Ummm… God CAN relate to mankind directly. Want some verses to prove my point?

    The word ‘lord’ or ‘master’ works the same way. Sometimes it can refer to God. Sometimes it can refer to another.

    On the ‘resurrect’ argument, I’d like to at least have the chapter and verse.
    Fair enough?
    I can guess, though, that I’m first going to look to see if it is possible that Jesus is talking in terms of acting as a prophet. I’m going to want you to exclude that possibility, and I’m going to want to compare your passage to similar passages of Elijah’s raising of the dead.

    At a minimum.

    Thank you for your post.
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Luke 6:37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.


    Mat 6:if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

    Blessed-one, thank you for your post"

    *chuckles* so if you just dont' judge you're already saved? Nope, sorry, you're taking those verses out of context bud.

    "There are no capital letters in Hebrew. "

    *sigh* if you really understood it you would know that it shows the significance of the title reflected in the hebrew...

    "Psalms 2 is referring to King David. Proof: "

    LOL, no its, not. Read the whole passage. David never ruled on "zion" now did he? Why don't you read Acts 4:25-26 eh? or what about 13:33?

    My guess is that you really haven't studied these verses at all.

    Let me read to you 13:33 just so you know you're wrong...
    "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fufilled for us, their chidler by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm..."

    Its refering to Christ...sorry but you're quite wrong.

    "Do you have a verse to support that? "

    Yup, Have you ever read Hebrews? Its all about mediators and how Christ was God and man.

    "The word, ‘incarnation’ does not appear even once in the NIV, KJV, NASB, YLT.

    Let me know where you got that. "

    I guess anything that doesn't appear in the bible doesn't exsist....American doesn't exsist because its not in the bible..So I guess you're full name isn't in there either, therefore you don't exsist. The concept is that God became flesh. John chapter 1.

    "God CAN relate to mankind directly. Want some verses to prove my point? "

    Sure, is God the Father flesh? Can he be tempted? If not then he can't relate to humans at all. Again, read the BOOK (IE NOT JUST A VERSE) of Hebrews.

    "The word ‘lord’ or ‘master’ works the same way. Sometimes it can refer to God. Sometimes it can refer to another"

    Umm..not same of the word "savior".

    "I’m going to want to compare your passage to similar passages of Elijah’s raising of the dead. "

    Did Elijah raise himself? If not its not applicable.

    Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

    They want a mirciuos sign for him to do Christ says okay, I'll do this...
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    here is some more..


    #42


    here is somemore..

    The Deity of Christ
    Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
    1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
    The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
    1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
    John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
    Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)
    Jesus is the proper object of faith
    It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in. You must put your faith in the proper object. Cults have false objects of faith; therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
    If you put your faith in a vacuum cleaner, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment. You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you.
    The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes:
    The Trinity - There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal, and of the same nature.
    Monotheism - There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.
    The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
    The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world
    As God - Jesus must be God to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man.
    He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.
    As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man.
    As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
  20. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +2
    Keep it up Louis,

    I doubt he's here for learning anything, but believe me, your insight is helping...
     
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