21st March 2003 at 11:52 PM Ezra said this in Post #242
How familiar with the Bible are you personally? If you were, you could not make such statements, so your information must be second-hand.
If you are in a church or group or congregation that believes in the doctrine that "Jesus and the Father are one and the same God," God says in Rev. 18:4: "Come out of her my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."
Yesterday at 11:29 PM chaizzilla said this in Post #263
If you are in a church or group or congregation that believes in the doctrine that "Jesus and the Father are one and the same God," God says in Rev. 18:4: "Come out of her my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."
god is not this petty.
Ed, I would like to ask you a question. Would you reply to the verses that we give you that support the trinity, and not just avoid them by repeating your verses? We know that your verses say what they say....that's why we have have the theory of the trinity. Forgive me if I'm being rude. Need the verses repeated? Ask....
Maybe do what Lared did....Lared took the verses that I gave and responded to them by explaining why they didn't work (in Lared's opinion). I still hold to what I believed before, but answering in that way instead of using the same verses helps improve the creditability of the person. Just a suggestion. I know I also need to improve my own posts etc. So I'm not saying that I'm not perfect. Um.....Once again, I hope I didn't offend you. Forgive me if I was rude.
Yes Ed, we all know that your Bible only has two verses, your entire belief system is built on those two verses. You post those same two verses, over and over and over again and ignore the rest of the Bible.Yesterday at 09:15 PM edpobre said this in Post #266
Take John 20:28 for example. Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Was Thomas addressing "my God" to Jesus or to God the Father? I don't think so. Nobody has gone into Thomas' head to know for sure. However, granted without admitting that Thomas was addressing "my God" to Jesus, does that mean that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is NULLIFIED because of what Thomas said? NO WAY! Jesus is the LORD - not Thomas!
Take John 20:28 for example. Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Was Thomas addressing "my God" to Jesus or to God the Father? I don't think so. Nobody has gone into Thomas' head to know for sure. However, granted without admitting that Thomas was addressing "my God" to Jesus, does that mean that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is NULLIFIED because of what Thomas said? NO WAY! Jesus is the LORD - not Thomas!
Yes Ed, we all know that your Bible only has two verses, your entire belief system is built on those two verses. You post those same two verses, over and over and over again and ignore the rest of the Bible.
[*]Jesus, standing directly in front of Thomas and heard his words, does NOT correct Thomas or tell him that He, Jesus, is not God!
[*]Vs. 29, Jesus praises Thomas for his confession and praises future generations who believe, that He is Lord and God, although they have not seen Him.[/list]
There are at least twenty six (26) O.T. passages, quoted in the N.T., in which the name of the Creator, יהוה/YHWH is addressed or applied to Jesus, these are only a few examples.
4th April 2003 at 09:24 PM edpobre said this in Post #270
OS: Yes Ed, we all know that your Bible only has two verses, your entire belief system is built on those two verses. You post those same two verses, over and over and over again and ignore the rest of the Bible.
My mind is open. You are the one with the closed mind. I believe the Bible, ALL the Bible! You believe only two verses.These are words of Jesus OldShepherd. Would you advise your grandchildren NOT to believe Jesus?
Please open your mind OldShepherd.
You need to look again Pobre, here is what the verse says, "Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." Thomas said TO HIM, Jesus. He wasn't just talking into the air. Can you see that Ed? Take a good look, open your eyes and open your mind. In the Greek, Thomas is saying TO JESUS, "The Lord of me and the God of me, to Jesus". It is NOT the correct form in Greek for an exclamation! Thomas was a devout Jew and would never say "My God" in vain!First, Jesus did NOT correct Thomas for SAYING "my God" because Thomas did NOT say anything wrong. Jesus KNEW that Thomas did NOT address "my God" to him. Thomas was and still is a TRUE disciple of Christ who BELIEVED in him and ABIDED in his word (John 8:31).
So Jesus just stood there and ignored when Thomas said TO HIM, TO JESUS, "My Lord and My God?"This is what Jesus admonished Thomas for. And this is why Jesus said that blessed are those who believe (that he was raised from the dead) although they had NOT seen him.
I know what Lord means Pobre but you are still closing your eyes and your mind, Thomas didn't just say Lord to jesus, he said TO Jesus, "My Lord and My God."The word "LORD" does NOT mean God OldShepherd. "Lord" means "master." As a matter of FACT God MADE Jesus both LORD and Christ (Acts 2:36).
Today at 06:57 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #272
This thread just keeps on going.......
This verse(Jesus said He is a MAN: John 8:40)has been posted so much, totally out of context, and being referred to as "the words of Jesus" that it deserves to be written in its entirety, the way Jesus spoke it. To say "i believe in what Jesus sais" and then cut Him off in the middle of a sentence is, well, no belief at all. In the sales world they call that 'cherry picking'. Could we at least let Jesus finish His sentence?
And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. the first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. (1Cor.15:45-49)
Heavenly Man. Jesus was not like the first Adam, made of dust, or made from another man. He therefore, as it sais, is HEAVENLY. A life-giving spirit. Do men of dust give life? Or does God alone give life. When Jesus said, ....Me, a man... He did not in any way indicate that He was as the 1st Adam, on the contrary. By reading His entire sentence in John 8, He tells us what manner of 'man' He is:
But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
He goes on to say: If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Loving the Father means loving Jesus, since He proceeded forth and came from........God. It coincides with the other frequently quoted verse here....the ONLY true God(John 17), also out of context and which has been shown, knowing ONE is knowing both.
Jesus DID NOT say, Me, a Man as you, or any other man, but Me a Man who has told you the truth which came FROM God.
The Jews to whom He was speaking then accuse Him of having a demon, because He promises any who keep His words that they shall not see death, and Abraham, their father had already died. There, He tells them they shall not see death. Just as the life-giving spirit mentioned in 1cor above. Jesus tells them, and us, He is a Man yes, but not as they, or Abraham, their father, who die, but one that gives LIFE. Only a heavenly man, divine in nature, can possibly give life.
They ask Him..."who do You make Yourself out to be?" To which He tells them the honor He has is His Fathers, God's, and He knows Him. After His final statement: Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM........they pick up stones and throw them at HIM!
I dont think the Jews made it a practice to kill and stone men for being just A MAN. But one who's very words speak of being God Himself would definately prompt this kind of act.
Yesterday at 06:10 PM EveOfGrace said this in Post #274
Thats a silly question Ed, since Jesus talks with me NOW. He doesnt have to wait till He returns to find out what i call Him or say Who(not what) He is. That would be too late since His purpose of return is to gather those that are already His.
He said alot of things Ed. He said MORE than just I am a Man. What i posted told ALL of His words in that sentence and in the entire conversation He was holding with the Jews of that time. I dont think that was striving to disprove what He said, just completing what He said instead of picking out one phrase without the rest of His words. He also said there, 'before Abraham was, I AM".
What you are saying, is because He was a man, He could not ALSO be divine. That He could have only 1 nature, an earthly nature just as any other ordinary man. That is NOT what He said.
I have never said He wasnt a man. He was. But that is not ALL He was. If i were to focus on His flesh nature alone, see only that flesh, i would be making the very mistake that the Jews He was addressing had made. Not understanding His words and from Whom He spoke them. He said, "I proceeded forth and came from God." Proceeded forth........He already existed before He became A Man. The man Jesus, WAS, before Abraham, the I AM.
So when He asks me, now, "Eve, who do you say that I am?" My answer is.........."You ARE, the Son of the living God".
The angel to Mary: And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)
Mary's song: My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. (Luke 1:47)
Why not? Where is that written? Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign. No one comes to Father but by Him. Jesus came to earth not to be served, but to serve. Because He CHOSE that position, as servant, to do the work His Father and ours gave Him to do, to save the world, does that take away His divinity? God made Himself lower than the angels, in His Son, that the Son would be exalted in due time. That time is come. His power to forgive, by Himself, and to give life was never removed even when He made Himself lowly, for our sakes. The bible sais that in Him ALL the fullness of the Godhead dwells, bodily. Godhead=deity, having divine nature. He was man, and He IS God.Being the Son of God does NOT make Jesus God the Son.
Do you actually hear what you are saying? Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign. If Jesus was God, then why would God have to give Jesus authority?Yesterday at 11:53 PM EveOfGrace said this in Post #276
Why not? Where is that written? Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign. No one comes to Father but by Him. Jesus came to earth not to be served, but to serve. Because He CHOSE that position, as servant, to do the work His Father and ours gave Him to do, to save the world, does that take away His divinity? God made Himself lower than the angels, in His Son, that the Son would be exalted in due time. That time is come. His power to forgive, by Himself, and to give life was never removed even when He made Himself lowly, for our sakes. The bible sais that in Him ALL the fullness of the Godhead dwells, bodily. Godhead=deity, having divine nature. He was man, and He IS God.
In all our years Jesus has never asked me, "Who is the only true God" because I understand His authority, His divinity, His position within that Godhead. I cannot, nor ever could, approach the throne of grace or Father without going through Jesus, they are One. They are both seated in heaven, side by side and there is no other Way to Father than through the Son. Holy Spirit unites us and is also ever present. Jesus isnt a separate or lessor God that i pass up on my way to the true God. I pray in His, Jesus name, that what i petition WILL be done. Everything, and everyone, goes THROUGH Him. He is just as much God as Father is. They are inseparable. They, are God.
Let US make man in OUR image.
I thought the explanation of Jesus being a servant, made lowly, God becoming Man to save all men, was sufficient as to 'why' He was given place as Judge and King. Do you actually hear what you are saying? Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign. If Jesus was God, then why would God have to give Jesus authority?
Hm, now you're getting it! And God said:Let US make man in our image. Speaking to?If Jesus heard the truth from God, then He would have had to have been speaking to Himself.
Notice 2 parts to that sentence. Part 1 ...for I proceeded forth and came from God. As you said, came forth, from His source. To come forth from a source means first existing in/with/as that source. Part 1 explains in what/Whom in this case, He pre-existed. Part 2....nor have i come of Myself, but He sent Me. Nor, beginning part 2, explains the reason or motive for which He proceeded forth. Simply, His (1)pre-existance AND His (2)motive both are God. So if God, is your Father, you would love Him(Jesus) as well. He goes on to say: If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. Jesus plainly said that He didn't come of Himself. He came from God. He proceeded forth (to come forth from a source - Webster) from God.
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