Jesus is the Reason for Calvinism

Ligurian · Jul 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Only one Christian concept involves justice--justification through faith in the person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing (position) with God's justice i.e., "not guilty," righteous, sanctified.

Nothing else regarding the believer is about justice in the NT.

There is no basis in the NT for your machinations regarding justice.

Maybe not in your gospel of grace to the gentiles.

But there is justice because there is judgment in the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

krisis = decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their works were evil.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous [are] His judgments: for He hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her adultery, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.

Ligurian · Jul 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
The only translation of the time.

Not the best translation of the Hebrew.

(burntorange added)

Jesus is my yardstick against which all things are measured.
You suppose that He came at a time when no good translation was available.
But I don't believe the Father is in a hurry or careless in His work or words.

fhansen · Jul 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Agreed.

yeah, yeah .

Clare73 · Jul 13, 2021

Ligurian said:
Maybe not in your gospel of grace to the gentiles.same

But there is justice because there is judgment in the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Standard dispensational methodology of dividing into two those things which are one and the same.

There is grace for those who believe in and trust on Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin, and
there is judgment for those who do not.

One and the same gospel, based on one and the same thing--response to Jesus Christ determines one's eternal destiny.

Clare73 · Jul 13, 2021

Ligurian said:
(burntorange added)

Jesus is my yardstick against which all things are measured.
You suppose that He came at a time when no good translation was available.
But I don't believe the Father is in a hurry or careless in His work or words.

Pretty much like he came at a time when no faith of the Jewish religious leaders was available.

You'll need better Scriptural support than that for your argument.

It's good, it's not the best, but ithe Septuagint was the only Greek translation available at the time.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 13, 2021

fhansen said:
Another good point you've made is the comparison between Paul's battle against Judaism and Augustine's against Pelagianism; they were both battling legalism-so the focus or emphasis was strictly on grace necessarily, with faith being the doorway to that gift, to that relationship that grace flows from.

As has been demonstrated, Augustine taught that predestination is the doorway to faith, that faith itself is the gift of God's grace, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve.

Those in the Reformed tradition Ephesians 2:8-9 as faith itself being the gift of God's grace.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is (saving faith) the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

fhansen said:
I just think that, at the end of the day, Augustine wasn’t so radical a determinist as Calvin (nor was Paul, either, IMO); pinning him down on the matter of double-predestination isn’t a slam-dunk, for example, according to respected scholars.

Martin Luther was Augustinian in his soteriology, yet he only believed in single predestination. I agree with Luther on this point.

There is a difference between double predestination and preterition.

It is important to differentiate preterition from double predestination. Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven. The problem is that double predestination is not taught in Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that God “elects” people to go to hell; the only election mentioned in the Bible is that which sends people to heaven. Preterition, in contrast, teaches that God actively elects some to heaven and passively allows others to remain in their sin—it is an unbalanced predestination in that God is active toward some and inactive toward others. The doctrine of preterition is careful not to go beyond what the Bible teaches about predestination.
What is the doctrine of preterition? | GotQuestions.org

I would also say that most denominations in the Reformed tradition might be closer to the doctrine of preterition than double predestination.

Clare73 · Jul 13, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
As has been demonstrated, Augustine taught that predestination is the doorway to faith, that faith itself is the gift of God's grace, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve.
Those in the Reformed tradition Ephesians 2:8-9 as faith itself being the gift of God's grace.

Martin Luther was Augustinian in his soteriology, yet he only believed in single predestination. I agree with Luther on this point.
There is a difference between double predestination and preterition.
I would also say that most denominations in the Reformed tradition might be closer to the doctrine of preterition than double predestination.

Not a dime's worth of difference. . .

fhansen · Jul 13, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
As has been demonstrated, Augustine taught that predestination is the doorway to faith, that faith itself is the gift of God's grace, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve.

Augustine taught that grace was the doorway to everything. I think he'd agree that the human will can still resist, that the elect are not the only ones receiving that grace.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 13, 2021

fhansen said:
I think he'd agree that the human will can still resist, that the elect are not the only ones receiving that grace.

Though it might make you feel uncomfortable, that's not what Augustine taught.

And yet further, lest it should be imagined that faith itself is to be attributed to men independently of the grace of God, the apostle says: "And that not of yourselves; for it is the gift of God."...
These men however, attribute faith to free will in such a way as to make it appear that grace is rendered to faith not as a gratuitous gift, but as a debt—thus ceasing to be grace any longer, because that is not grace which is not gratuitous.
Augustine of Hippo in 418

Of these believers no one perishes, because they were all elected. And they were elected because they were called according to the purpose–the purpose, however, not their own, but God’s…Obedience then is God’s gift…To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God.
Calvinism in the Early Church (The Doctrines of Grace taught by the Early Church Fathers) | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

Augustine wrote extensively on the perseverence/preservation of the saints:

Chapter 10 All Perseverance is God's Gift.
Chapter 11 They Who Have Not Received the Gift of Perseverance, and Have Relapsed into Mortal Sin and Have Died Therein, Must Righteously Be Condemned.
Chapter 12 They Who Have Not Received Perseverance are Not Distinguished from the Mass of Those that are Lost.
Chapter 14 None of the Elect and Predestinated Can Perish.
Chapter 15 Perseverance is Given to the End.
Chapter 16 Whosoever Do Not Persevere are Not Distinguished from the Mass of Perdition by Predestination.
Chapter 17 Why Perseverance Should Be Given to One and Not Another is Inscrutable.
CHURCH FATHERS: On Rebuke and Grace (St. Augustine)

Irresistible grace doesn’t mean that God’s elect will never rebel, but that God’s grace is powerful enough to overcome the elect’s rebellion, transform their wills and desires, and lead them to ultimate salvation.

If you have any quotes from Augustine against the doctrines of unconditional election, irresistible (enabling) grace and preservation of the saints, please share them.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not a dime's worth of difference. . .

If double predestination is true, then is God the author of sin?

If God merely passes over those in their natural fallen state, then He's not responsible for their damnation.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 14, 2021

If saving faith is entirely a gift of the Holy Spirit, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve, as Augustine, Luther and Calvin taught, then those who deny it are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, committing the unpardonable sin.

Anti-Calvinists should be sure, then, that the Bible rejects irresistible (enabling, efficacious) grace before they reject it too.

The Holy Spirit will work in the lives of the elect so that they inevitably will come to faith in Christ. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring to salvation those sinners whom He personally calls to Christ (John 6:37-40)...

Another misconception concerning this doctrine is that it teaches the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted at all. Yet, again, that is not what the doctrine teaches because that is not what the Bible teaches. God’s grace can be resisted, and the Holy Spirit’s influence can be resisted even by one of the elect. However, what the doctrine does correctly recognize is that the Holy Spirit can overcome all such resistance and that He will draw the elect with an irresistible grace that makes them want to come to God and helps them to understand the gospel so they can and will believe it.
Irresistible Grace - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

fhansen · Jul 14, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
If saving faith is entirely a gift of the Holy Spirit, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve, as Augustine, Luther and Calvin taught, then those who deny it are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, committing the unpardonable sin.

Anti-Calvinists should be sure, then, that the Bible rejects irresistible (enabling, efficacious) grace before they reject it too.

I’d find the unpardonable sin more appealing, and reasonable. The God of Calvinism is sort of silly anyway.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 14, 2021

fhansen said:
I’d find the unpardonable sin more appealing, and reasonable.

What does the doctrine of "irresistible grace" mean to you? How would you define it, to the best of your understanding? It's better to reject a doctrine for what it is than a strawman that has been made of it.

fhansen said:
The God of Calvinism is sort of silly anyway.

It’s only called “Calvinism” because John Calvin popularized the doctrines of grace, he did not originate them. It’s the same doctrines that Augustine taught against Pelagius and Luther taught against Rome.

There are numerous Bible verses and quotations from the church fathers supporting the five points of Calvinism. The doctrines of grace are simply a convenient way of articulating what’s already revealed in the Bible.

Calvinism in the Early Church (The Doctrines of Grace taught by the Early Church Fathers) | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

Humble_Disciple · Jul 14, 2021

Humble_Disciple · Jul 14, 2021

Calvinism traditionally teaches that, while election is unconditional, reprobation isn't. Everyone, without exception, is deserving of hell.

It's only by God's grace that He chooses to save some and not others. If He were obligated to save everyone equally, that would be justice and not grace.

Clare73 · Jul 14, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
If double predestination is true, then is God the author of sin?

How does that work?

God is no more the author of sin under "double predestination" than he is in the accounting/imputing of Adam's sin to all mankind (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18-19).

If God merely passes over those in their natural fallen state, then
He's not responsible for their damnation.

He's not responsible for their damnation anyway, their failure to apply the remedy (Romans 3:25) for their damnation is responsible.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Clare73 · Jul 14, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
If saving faith is entirely a gift of the Holy Spirit, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve, as Augustine, Luther and Calvin taught, then
those who deny it are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, committing the unpardonable sin.

Actually, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to Satan, it is not denying the saving faith of the Holy Spirit.

Anti-Calvinists should be sure, then, that the Bible rejects irresistible (enabling, efficacious) grace before they reject it too.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
He's not responsible for their damnation anyway, their failure to apply the remedy (Romans 3:25) for their damnation is responsible.

Clare73 said:
Only if God owes anyone saving faith, which he does not.

According to the doctrine of unconditional election, saving faith is entirely the gift of God's grace, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve.

Clare73 · Jul 14, 2021

fhansen said:
I’d find the unpardonable sin more appealing, and reasonable. The God of Calvinism is sort of silly anyway.

It being attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to Satan.

(Something tells me I am missing something here.)

Clare73 · Jul 14, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
According to the doctrine of unconditional election, saving faith is entirely the gift of God's grace, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve.

Agreed.

Jesus is the Reason for Calvinism

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