Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (3)

[ozell]

If the only thing you are interested in is salvation, your missing God and you aren't dwelling in His love. (scripture tells us to dwell in HIs love)

Sister

if we are blessed enough to obtain salvation then God has loved us from the time we start obeying to the time he redeems us!!

open up that mind of your and learn the whole plan of God!!!

 

[ozell]

PS.105v6) O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. (7) He is our God: his judgments are in all the earth. (8) He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. (9) Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; (10) and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.

LUKE 13v28) But he shall say, I tell you, I know ye not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. (28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all The prophets, in the kingdom of God, and ye yourselves thrust out.

(They will live again, because they obeyed life)

 

[ozell]

Sons of Jacob
Reuben-Simeon-Levi-Judah-Dan-Naphtali-Gad-Asher-Issachar-Zebulun-Joseph-Benjamin.

MATH.1v1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (2) Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; (5) and Salmon begat Boaz of Rachab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; (6) and Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Uriah; (7) and Solomon begat Rehoboam; and Rehoboam begat Abijah; and Abijah begat Asa;

Paul, a Hebrew, the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin (ACTS 23:6; ROM.11:1; II COR.11:22; PHIL.3:5)

JOHN 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

 

[ozell]

LUKE 16v29) Abraham said unto him, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, nay, Father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuade, though one rose from the dead.



JOHN 5v46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believe me: for he wrote of me. (47) But Ifye believe not Moses writings, how shall you believe my words?



Ifyou search the scriptures you may find out that what God asked to be done for salvation, from eternal damnation, is not at all difficult.

 

[ozell]

Romans 3


1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


God's love is conditional The oracles of God proves this.

These oracles were committed to the Israelites and not the gentiles.

this is why we have a doctrine being preached every Sunday called God loves everyone, God love is unconditional.

The oracles of God don't support this
The Father don't support this
The Son don't support this
The Holy Spirit don't support this

 

[ozell]

let me touch on the Holy Spirit again, for some here who think they understand how he operates.

lets read so God's word wil be a witness against you who think they understand the HS.


one of the jobs of the HS is to guide you into all truth

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

lets read some truth

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

now Jesus said if you love him keep his commandments, the same Jesus said the Spirit of truth will will guide you in ALL truth. YET YOU ALL REALLY DON'T BELEIVE THIS.

lets read some more

1 John 5:2-4


2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.



the truth is that God love us when we keep his commandments

the same person who wrote the spirit of truth will guide you into all truth also wrote that God love us when we keep his commandments


what is truth?

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

the same person who wrote
1 John 5:2-4


2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

and

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

said that the HS will

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

told us to be sanctified(separated by truth)

this is what the HS will give us!!

GOD'S TRUTH!!!

 

[groktruth]

I don't disagree with this, but I do disagree with the extent to which so people interpret these passage. For example, some people read these passages and say, opps, can't talk about the game last night because that would be wrong....or can't discuss the differences in scriptural understanding because that would be foolish disputes. I personally find there to be a balance in scripture on these matters. (more from examples than from specific passages) for example in this thread, after it became apparent that certain parts of this discussion were not gonna be addressed by certain posters, I stopped posting replies to them after I was confident I was clear in what I was saying. If new arguments were presented, no problem, but when the same old tired non listening stuff came up, I just ignored it. In this way, I can be sure that I am above reproach in my presentation of scripture (clear communication) and at the same time, not be a part of foolish disputes. Others think that the second or third time an issue arrises, it's foolish dispute, but then how do you know your communication is clear? Personally I think there is a balance and I'm better that occasionally, Jesus and the disciples talked about the football game, but the focus on their lives was spiritual life.

Here is what is good in Ozell's posts. In American around 70% believe that they will go to heaven when they die. The actual percentage, according to a consensus of several efforts to learn prophetically, is much, much lower. 99% at least, are in the "Lord, Lord" category, in for a terrible surprise on judgement day. Why? In part, because they have been confused by the "unconditional love of God" claim, and interpret it to mean that they will be saved even though they are at best luke-warm in their lawfullness. Ozell hopes to dispell this confusion, and since Jesus never uses the term "unconditional love" we are indeed asking for confusion when we try to use different words than Him. Our efforts, of course, are to encourage those who have fallen into sin to turn back to God, hoping that He has not utterly forsaken them. But how should we say this? Ozell says, and the scriptures I noted confirm, that the term "unconditional" has been hijacked by the evil one, and puts luke-warm believers to sleep. For every seeker we encourage, we lose a hundred backsliders.

 

[ozell]

UNTIL

you all start accepting the truth which is God words then what do you know about the HS.

we are told to question those who think they have the HS.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I don't beleived your spirits, because they are not from God.

Jesus said this is love

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5:2-4
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Romans 13:10
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

this is the love, htis is how we sanctify ourselves in truth, this is the truth that the HS will guide us to.

love is keeping the commandments, this is the conditions of LOVE!!!

 

[ozell]

Here is what is good in Ozell's posts. In American around 70% believe that they will go to heaven when they die. The actual percentage, according to a consensus of several efforts to learn prophetically, is much, much lower. 99% at least, are in the "Lord, Lord" category, in for a terrible surprise on judgement day. Why? In part, because they have been confused by the "unconditional love of God" claim, and interpret it to mean that they will be saved even though they are at best luke-warm in their lawfullness. Ozell hopes to dispell this confusion, and since Jesus never uses the term "unconditional love" we are indeed asking for confusion when we try to use different words than Him. Our efforts, of course, are to encourage those who have fallen into sin to turn back to God, hoping that He has not utterly forsaken them. But how should we say this? Ozell says, and the scriptures I noted confirm, that the term "unconditional" has been hijacked by the evil one, and puts luke-warm believers to sleep. For every seeker we encourage, we lose a hundred backsliders.

WELL SAID

the apostles or Prophets never taught unconditional love, Jesus never taught unconditional love.

all through the bible we read where people young and old are being killed in horrific ways by our God and Saviour. why? wickedness, iniquity, sin.

what way do we combat this?
LOVE
which is keeping the commandments.

the problem is that most of us don't know what love is, even here people did not know what the biblical definition of love was until I put the verses.

God will bring those he wants to his table all we can do is put the truth out there.

 

[groktruth]

In a Razzelflabben post, we have my quote,

"2. It is a constant reminder of the importance of "keeping the commandments," as essential to salvation."

And her question.
​

how is it a constant reminder of keeping the commandments for salvation? Salvation and love are not the same thing, therefore keeping the commands as they relate to salvation should not be part of this discussion...so how then is it good to continue to take us off topic, even for a biblical truth?

The command we have is, "Hear everything, prove (or hold onto) what is good." There is a lot to overlook in Ozell's (or my, for that matter) posts. But what is good? Reminding folks that if they don't keep the commandments, they do not have salvation, and to think otherwise is to deceive themselves. Now, your posts are more on thread, and what is good there is your emphasis on rightly dividing the word of truth, "love." According to the wisdom of scripture, rightly dividing words of truth, starting with love, is the sine qua non of the highway to holiness. The first commandment that must be kept, before all others. (It is the first act of "keeping" commandments, since commandments are made of words. The first act of evil--Prov 2:12--is to speak perverse things.)

No one can stay "on topic" if they are not keeping the commandments, starting with the one you keep bringing up. So, both you and Ozell are offering some essential good for others to hold on to.

 

[ozell]

there will be people put into the lake of fire.

why?

we know the beast and false prophet will be put into the lake of fire.

why?

we all have to get it right while we are alive.

do you love God? keep his commandments

if we keep his commandments the Lord said he loves us

this is very simple

except

the churches teach

the laws of Moses is done away with
the OT is fulfilled
the law was nailed to the cross

when this nonsense is taught the people are without Godly love.

do you all understand

if the churches are teaching the law is no more how can the people love God or God love them

apply this to these verse please!!!


John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5:2-4
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Romans 13:10
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Proverbs 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.



how can a person know what love is according to the bible if they are not shown, if there church teach that the law is no more?

we even have people on this forum who believe this non sense!

 

[razzelflabben]

Sister

if we are blessed enough to obtain salvation then God has loved us from the time we start obeying to the time he redeems us!!

open up that mind of your and learn the whole plan of God!!!

that doesn't even come close to addressing what I said, sometimes I wonder why you speak at all, you never seem to address any of the issues you are presented with.

 

[razzelflabben]

let me touch on the Holy Spirit again, for some here who think they understand how he operates.

lets read so God's word wil be a witness against you who think they understand the HS.


one of the jobs of the HS is to guide you into all truth

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

lets read some truth

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

now Jesus said if you love him keep his commandments, the same Jesus said the Spirit of truth will will guide you in ALL truth. YET YOU ALL REALLY DON'T BELEIVE THIS.

lets read some more

1 John 5:2-4


2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.



the truth is that God love us when we keep his commandments

the same person who wrote the spirit of truth will guide you into all truth also wrote that God love us when we keep his commandments


what is truth?

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

the same person who wrote
1 John 5:2-4


2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

and

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

said that the HS will

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

told us to be sanctified(separated by truth)

this is what the HS will give us!!

GOD'S TRUTH!!!

so now you want to change the topic to the HS? How can we keep up if you keep changing the topic to everything but God's love for man?

 

[ozell]

In a Razzelflabben post, we have my quote,

"2. It is a constant reminder of the importance of "keeping the commandments," as essential to salvation."

And her question.
​

how is it a constant reminder of keeping the commandments for salvation? Salvation and love are not the same thing, therefore keeping the commands as they relate to salvation should not be part of this discussion...so how then is it good to continue to take us off topic, even for a biblical truth?

The command we have is, "Hear everything, prove (or hold onto) what is good." There is a lot to overlook in Ozell's (or my, for that matter) posts. But what is good? Reminding folks that if they don't keep the commandments, they do not have salvation, and to think otherwise is to deceive themselves. Now, your posts are more on thread, and what is good there is your emphasis on rightly dividing the word of truth, "love." According to the wisdom of scripture, rightly dividing words of truth, starting with love, is the sine qua non of the highway to holiness. The first commandment that must be kept, before all others. (It is the first act of "keeping" commandments, since commandments are made of words. The first act of evil--Prov 2:12--is to speak perverse things.)

No one can stay "on topic" if they are not keeping the commandments, starting with the one you keep bringing up. So, both you and Ozell are offering some essential good for others to hold on to.

The Sister when she is not going emotional on me and when she put the verse is correct on most things yet she put the attributes of love, or what a person suppose to do to show love like THE CHARITY chapter

the biblical definition of love is keeping the commandments
everything else like charity and all the fruits of the spirit fall under the commandments

I'm not offering anything Brother

I put the verse/scriptures and put the examples and let the people choose.

these are God's words not mine.

its a good topic and it is was well responded

I know people will believe what they want and that is between them and God.

thanks for being a mediator, for me the topic will run its course.

peace in Jesus

 

[ozell]

so now you want to change the topic to the HS? How can we keep up if you keep changing the topic to everything but God's love for man?

and you ask why I don't respond to you

Sister

we have this discussion on the first page

all of God's word is connected

salvation
commanmdents
redemption
love
baptism
saved
born again
the Holy Spirit

by the way you and your crew mentioned the HS, so since you went there, I felt obligated to correct you all, anyway it is reated to the topic.

 

[ozell]

that doesn't even come close to addressing what I said, sometimes I wonder why you speak at all, you never seem to address any of the issues you are presented with.

sister

why do you think I need to respond to you?

that's very strange.

if you read the post and verses I put your questions and responses are answered.

you don't have a problem with the word of God you have a problem with me.

open up that mind of yours and pay attention to what you post!!

 

[groktruth]

Again, Razzelflabben quotes me,

"3. It is a vivid display of hypocrisy, as poster after poster agrees that keeping the commandments is essential, then proceeds to ignore any and all commandments in what they actually do."

Then comments:
​

interesting claim...only problem is, I only know of one poster that has broken the commandments on this thread. We all have in our lives, but on this thread, I only know of one. Sometimes (as that poster says) truth is difficult to hear, but when scripture calls us a liar it is not a breaking of the commandments to point that out. So question...are you judging here? Trying to stir up anger, which is according to I Cor. 13 not love?

Now, we have the commandment to rebuke the unruly. By unruly, we mean, I believe, those who do what they think makes sense, without playing by the rules. So, in my quote, what commandment was I keeping? Or was I "unruly?" I thought I was in fact warning or rebuking the unruly, or lazy, who "under-criticize" their own posts. They know that keeping the commandments is important, but go on to post things that have little apparent direct connection to a commandment.

Ok, Razz, your turn. Examine your comment, and tell us what commandments you were keeping in your statements.

​

 

[ozell]

Outside the law is disobedience

Outside the law is obedience to another than the parent. Graven images and likeness to represent parent. Merciless and hate among one another. Desecrate the name. Refuse the Sabbath. Dishonor father and mother. Kill one another. commit adultery with another one’s spouse. Steal from one another. Bear false witness against one another. Covet one another house. With no regard to the consequence.

REV.22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[ozell]

Ephesians 6:11-13

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

 

[razzelflabben]

Here is what is good in Ozell's posts. In American around 70% believe that they will go to heaven when they die. The actual percentage, according to a consensus of several efforts to learn prophetically, is much, much lower. 99% at least, are in the "Lord, Lord" category, in for a terrible surprise on judgement day. Why? In part, because they have been confused by the "unconditional love of God" claim, and interpret it to mean that they will be saved even though they are at best luke-warm in their lawfullness.

scripture addresses the luke warm believer, seems to me the answer is NOT to change scripture into saying God's love is conditional, but rather in teaching the totality of scripture in opposition to teaching only the parts that make people feel good. In fact, I know many people who fail to live in God's love and grace because of teaching like Ozell's and others here have said so as well. Point is, we don't change scripture to fit what others may or may not understand, but rather we allow all of scripture to shape us and guide us and teach us truth. When we change scripture as Ozell does, all we do is create an environment in which Satan has more opportunity to deceive. Not wise, and totally against scripture to do so.

Ozell hopes to dispell this confusion, and since Jesus never uses the term "unconditional love" we are indeed asking for confusion when we try to use different words than Him.

Two points here. 1. there is an old saying, two wrongs don't make a right. Telling people a lie about God's love doesn't stop the lies Satan throws at people to get them all off track with God and His truths. and 2. Many many many times now, the idea of unconditional love has been presented as it is shown in scripture. There are many words that we use that did not originally exist in the bible but express a truth today. In fact, no english words existed in the bible in the beginning. Therefore, every word we read in english from the Bible every truth we speak, falls into this category of idea over specific word. To make this argument hold water would be to remove all english understanding and we couldn't be communicating at all about the bible. Words do have meanings and so do Ideas and they are expressed through words. Now one thing I have been trying to get Ozell to see is that not all his ideas are flawed, but rather the flaw is in his chosen wording and what those words mean. Instead of talking about what these things mean, he insistes he is right and everyone else is wrong but has no understanding of the words he presents. Anyway, Ozell isn't the point here, so back to the point. The idea of unconditional love is more than evidenced in scripture. The word may not, but the idea is without doubt.

Our efforts, of course, are to encourage those who have fallen into sin to turn back to God, hoping that He has not utterly forsaken them.

without doubt, but we can't do that by teaching false doctrine, in fact, it is only in teaching truth that they even have a chance at restoration.

But how should we say this? Ozell says, and the scriptures I noted confirm, that the term "unconditional" has been hijacked by the evil one, and puts luke-warm believers to sleep. For every seeker we encourage, we lose a hundred backsliders.

So if you really believe this, then explain to me the truth here. Unconditional love as has been well documented and described, means that God loves everyone enough to offer them salvation. Salvation is conditional. What part of that, encourages someone to think that they don't have to do anything to be saved?

Let's get even more specific as has been repeatedly done on this thread. Scripture tells us that God loves everyone even when they were enemies of God. So God offers to all men, out of that great love, salvation. But salvation is a conditional thing and requires us to both repent and to obey the commands of God. If we do this, if we repent of our sin and obey God's commands, we dwell in His love and His love dwells in us. This salvation is a demonstration of the unconditional love of God, a love that judges us, provides for us, corrects us, is just towards us, but a love that does not vanish every time we make a mistake.

Now take what is said above of God's unconditional love and show me how someone listening to what is being said (key word listening) can twist that to mean that I don't have to do anything to go to heaven because there are no consequences to sin....in fact, the consequences of sin were also discussed in depth as they relate to living in God's unconditional love vs. living in a conditional love.

Point being, we can't change scripture to try to correct misuses of idea and concepts that have invaded our churches. Scripture is truth and to teach something that is contrary to it is false teaching which is a very nasty thing according to scripture.