Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (3)

[ozell]

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[ozell]

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2:1-3&version=KJVEphesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

why wrath and not love upon these people?

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

these people work at iniquity which God hates

Psalm 45:7
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

these people remain wicked which God hates


Psalm 50:17
Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee.
​

these people hate God's words and hate instructions from God

 

[razzelflabben]

Ozell, the meaning of condition is that for X to exist Y must happen/exist. Websters conditional...
: subject to, implying, or dependent upon a condition <a conditional promise>
2
: expressing, containing, or implying a supposition <the conditional clause if he speaks>

3
a : true only for certain values of the variables or symbols involved <conditional equations> b : stating the case when one or more random variables are fixed or one or more events are known <conditional frequency distribution>

4
a : conditioned 2 <conditional reflex> <conditional response> b : established by conditioning as the stimulus eliciting a conditional response

To date, you have shown us laws that are established because of love, but you lack scripture that shows love ceases to exist if we break those laws.

Now in an effort to clear up the mess you are making of love, let's use an analogy, Christ often used parables which are very similar to analogies. Let's see if you can read them for meaning.

I have 5 child whom I love very much. Because I love them, I want them to be safe and so I establish a law that they must look both ways before crossing the street. I make the law out of love. One day, one of the children runs across the street after their ball and did not look first, is hit by a car. They broke the "condition" (as you would call it of love) does my love for them stop? do I say to them, sorry charlie, you broke the law, can't love you any more? Of course not, don't be silly. I still love the child and cherish them. I still love and cherish because love for them still exists, that love is without condition. The only reason the law exists in the first place is because I love. The love has no condition, the law does. Love exists with or without obedience, however if you understand and accept the love, the children will obey my law because the law itself is love.

Now let's add an element to our analogy. I tell my children, if you break the law, the rule, I'm gonna ground you for a week. One of the children runs across the street, I ground them. Do I stop loving them because I grounded them? Of course not, again a silly claim. I ground them because I love them and want them safe. The condition for love to exist is not that they are never corrected but rather love corrects the child. Without love there would be no need for the law or for the correction. Love both places law and corrects, it is not absent from either.

Now, you have been shown this repeatedly in scripture, but let's summarize for the hard hearted. Love issues commandments for us to follow. It is NOT the absence of love that issues commandments but rather it's very existance. Love corrects or chastens us when we disobey. The lack of Love does NOT punish us, but it is love itself that punishes us. Consequences are the same way, consequences are a great learning tool and love allows the consequences to teach us much. These things exist because love exists, not the other way about. The law is not the absence of love, but rather it is the existance of love. Punishment/correction is not the absence of love, but rather it is the very existence of love. likewise, consequences are not the absence of love, but rather the very existence of love.

Ozell, you have come here many times and tried to proclaim that love ceases to exist because of the law, because of punishment, because of correction. Which is total opposite to what scripture says about love. All three of these things are part of love, therefore do not exist unless Love also exists. Don't turn things backwards just because it makes you feel wise.

If you presented another argument at the end of the thread split you want addressed, just let me know, I would like to see an end to this thread sometime in the future.

 

[groktruth]

I like this thread!

1. It is a constant reminder of the futility of wrangling over words, especially words that are not scriptural, like "conditional" or "unconditional".

2. It is a constant reminder of the importance of "keeping the commandments," as essential to salvation.

3. It is a vivid display of hypocrisy, as poster after poster agrees that keeping the commandments is essential, then proceeds to ignore any and all commandments in what they actually do.

4. It is a good reminder of how frustrating it is to argue from our understanding, eschewing the many commands in scripture to speak prophetically, not from what we think or reason, but from what we hear God speaking to us. (And, yes, He told me to post these words, giving them to me in response to my query of Him, "Lord, why are you sustaining this thread?")

So, lurkers and visitors to the thread, and some posters, vague on these issues, find clarity.

 

[ozell]

I like this thread!

1. It is a constant reminder of the futility of wrangling over words, especially words that are not scriptural, like "conditional" or "unconditional".

2. It is a constant reminder of the importance of "keeping the commandments," as essential to salvation.

3. It is a vivid display of hypocrisy, as poster after poster agrees that keeping the commandments is essential, then proceeds to ignore any and all commandments in what they actually do.

4. It is a good reminder of how frustrating it is to argue from our understanding, eschewing the many commands in scripture to speak prophetically, not from what we think or reason, but from what we hear God speaking to us. (And, yes, He told me to post these words, giving them to me in response to my query of Him, "Lord, why are you sustaining this thread?")

So, lurkers and visitors to the thread, and some posters, vague on these issues, find clarity.

amen!


all i wanted is for my
fellow followers of Jesus
to know is God's love
is conditional.

the truth is that unconditional
don't exist period.

 

[razzelflabben]

I like this thread!

1. It is a constant reminder of the futility of wrangling over words, especially words that are not scriptural, like "conditional" or "unconditional".

interesting thoughts...so you think that ideas and expressing ideas that are scriptural but lack specific words in scripture is futile? I'm asking for some clarifications before someone accuses me of anything else.

2. It is a constant reminder of the importance of "keeping the commandments," as essential to salvation.

how is it a constant reminder of keeping the commandments for salvation? Salvation and love are not the same thing, therefore keeping the commands as they relate to salvation should not be part of this discussion...so how then is it good to continue to take us off topic, even for a biblical truth?

3. It is a vivid display of hypocrisy, as poster after poster agrees that keeping the commandments is essential, then proceeds to ignore any and all commandments in what they actually do.

interesting claim...only problem is, I only know of one poster that has broken the commandments on this thread. We all have in our lives, but on this thread, I only know of one. Sometimes (as that poster says) truth is difficult to hear, but when scripture calls us a liar it is not a breaking of the commandments to point that out. So question...are you judging here? Trying to stir up anger, which is according to I Cor. 13 not love?

4. It is a good reminder of how frustrating it is to argue from our understanding, eschewing the many commands in scripture to speak prophetically, not from what we think or reason, but from what we hear God speaking to us. (And, yes, He told me to post these words, giving them to me in response to my query of Him, "Lord, why are you sustaining this thread?")

So God is sustaining this thread so that you can post these points? or God is sustaining this thread so that we can continue to post scriptures that are ignored? I'm not following your point.

So, lurkers and visitors to the thread, and some posters, vague on these issues, find clarity.

I would love to find clarity but need some clarification of what you are specifically trying to say. So many times on the forum, people say one thing but mean something totally different. When I ask for clarity so I know what they mean, they get offended and angry. Please don't get offended and angry, I simply want to understand exactly what your trying to say so I know what to do with this post.

 

[razzelflabben]

ozell, I noticed you didn't respond to my post #3...hope you get to it soon, I really think that if you actually deal with what is said in that post, #3 we could put an end to this debate, but if you continue to ignore what it says in exchange for your own intellect, well....

 

[Christownsme]

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

why wrath and not love upon these people?

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.​

these people work at iniquity which God hates​

Psalm 45:7
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

these people remain wicked which God hates ​

Psalm 50:17
Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee.​

these people hate God's words and hate instructions from God

Why are you so concerned that God hates the wicked and workers of iniquity? Aren't you a born again believer? Let's live in the here and now, putting our past behind us, and marvel in God's love for us as believers. Unconditional for His Bride, as you have agreed before. Are you calling God unfair or unjust as He deals with unbelievers? I think you'd do much better praising God for His love which is now here for you (us) as believers than keep focusing on the past.

Your post title, "Jesus is a God of conditional love, not unconditional," is half way wrong in the first place. You ought to have specified you're talking about for the unbelievers. Because this title is NOT true for the true believer in Christ. Your post title is not only deceptive, but how do you know the heart of God, who loved the world enough to sacrifice His Son for it? It's not the good people who enter the kingdom of heaven, but the forgiven ones. Who are the forgiven ones? The ones who were enemies of Christ when He died for them, but had faith when they looked back on Whom they pierced.

 

[ozell]

=Christownsme;56066940]Why are you so concerned that God hates the wicked and workers of iniquity? Aren't you a born again believer? Let's live in the here and now, putting our past behind us, and marvel in God's love for us as believers. Unconditional for His Bride, as you have agreed before. Are you calling God unfair or unjust as He deals with unbelievers? I think you'd do much better praising God for His love which is now here for you (us) as believers than keep focusing on the past.

No

I'm calling anyone who teach God's love is uncondtional as unfair.

I praise God by teaching his word to the unbelievers.

here is a example

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.​

can we classify these people as unbelievers?

Your post title, "Jesus is a God of conditional love, not unconditional," is half way wrong in the first place. You ought to have specified you're talking about for the unbelievers.

is unconditional love taught in the Christian church full of believers or is it taught in a church full of unbelievers? in other words where is the preaching of unconditional love taught?

Because this title is NOT true for the true believer in Christ. Your post title is not only deceptive, but how do you know the heart of God, who loved the world enough to sacrifice His Son for it?

the problem is most here on this thread don't keep the commandments
so when I posted these conditions from God people took exception right away.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5:2-4
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.


3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Proverbs 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

there is nothing deceptive about the topic, the problem is it shoot holes in the false doctrine that God loves everyone. we have been all over the bible showing God don't love everyone, even you admit he love the believers, if this is the case what about the unbelievers, no need to explain you have already.

It's not the good people who enter the kingdom of heaven, but the forgiven ones. Who are the forgiven ones? The ones who were enemies of Christ when He died for them, but had faith when they looked back on Whom they pierced.

again God love can't be unconditional because he has enemies who will not enter into the kingdom

the 2 who get cast into the lake of fire first is the false prophet and beast.

 

[groktruth]

amen!


all i wanted is for my
fellow followers of Jesus
to know is God's love
is conditional.

the truth is that unconditional
don't exist period.

One thing God wants is for all those who choose to be His followers to know that their "salvation" (He hopes from eternal separation from Him, and glory) depends on their "keeping His commandments." In your case, He wants you to "keep" the commandment to rightly divide words of truth, especially "love" and "salvation." In "honoring all men," you are commanded also to respect the division in meaning that has been pointed out by others. "Love" is defined scripturally as "keeping the commandments." Others here believe God had told them that Love is otherwise defined, but is distinctly different from salvation.

Wisdom is to recognize that anyone wanting to return to God, to be welcomed by Him in love, can do so no matter what they have done. If they return to Him, they will meet love. Severe love, if they need this, but love nonetheless. This is our witness, and to post any other thought that would be a stumbling block to anyone getting up their gumption to seek God "with all their might" is going to make God quite angry.

Maybe it is only me, but the confusing statement, "God's love is conditional." is such a stumbling block.

But you are clear that you are addressing followers of Jesus, who at present are fatally backsliding in astonishing numbers because they fail to get a grip on the slippery slope of lawlessness. The false gospel of greasy grace is a gross misunderstanding, which Jesus warned would result in the seed, though gratefully received, being lost or proving unfruitful.

Now, aside from neglecting the right division of words of truth, we also have the scriptural admonition, "If any man thinks that they know something, they know nothing as they ought." This is a commandment to never say something like, "the truth is that unconditional love don't exist period." Such a statement, by someone advocating the keeping of the commandments, is hypocritical. Your Godly message is severely watered down to "commandment keepers" who remember the commandment to beware of hypocrites.

The first commandment of our Lord is to repent. Now we are all looking to see if you "keep" that commandment.

 

[razzelflabben]

No

I'm calling anyone who teach God's love is uncondtional as unfair.

I praise God by teaching his word to the unbelievers.

so what about your teaching false doctrine to the believers here? What is that if your praise is teaching false doctrine to unbelievers?

here is a example

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
​

can we classify these people as unbelievers?




is unconditional love taught in the Christian church full of believers or is it taught in a church full of unbelievers? in other words where is the preaching of unconditional love taught?

in scripture...

the problem is most here on this thread don't keep the commandments
so when I posted these conditions from God people took exception right away.

who are you to judge people whom you do not know? People whose lives you cannot evaluate as being obedient or not. In fact, that crosses over into the realm of judgment of which we are commanded not to do. Which takes us back to scripture calling you a liar for disobeying and according to you, means that He does not love you because of your disobedience in judging others without cause...hum...funny how scripture tells us what is truth...isn't it?

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5:2-4
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Proverbs 8:17
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

there is nothing deceptive about the topic, the problem is it shoot holes in the false doctrine that God loves everyone. we have been all over the bible showing God don't love everyone, even you admit he love the believers, if this is the case what about the unbelievers, no need to explain you have already.

I love my children...does that by default mean I don't love anyone else? Does it mean I don't love my parents, siblings, friends, etc because I say to you that I love my children? Of course not, that is another rediculous claim of yours. God does love His children, those that obey, but just because He loves His children doesn't mean He doesn't love anyone else. In fact, there are lots of scriptures that tell us that God loves even His enemies, even those that disobey, but you refuse to address these passages. You refuse to accept what scripture teaches.

let me tell you an insight a friend of ours had about those who claim special revelation...yep, that is what you are claiming, special revelation...anyway, he noted that there are those that need to believe that God gives special revelation because it means they can set themselves up to be like Jesus. Wow, what truth there is in that statement. When we accept that scripture is our special revelation and accept all that it says, not just the parts that we like because we can twist them. Ozell, God's special revalation is scripture, not you.

again God love can't be unconditional because he has enemies who will not enter into the kingdom

neither enemies of God, nor the consequence of hell, can stop love. In fact, let's see what scripture tells us can separate us from God's love....Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Romans 8: 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ozell, read the scripture...what according to scripture can separate us from God? NOTHING IN THIS CREATION. NOTHING, God's words, not mine. NOTHING Ozell, NOTHING can separate us from God's love...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read what God says, NOTHING can separate us from God's LOVE, NOTHING...very different from the gospel you are trying to preach.

the 2 who get cast into the lake of fire first is the false prophet and beast.

The lake of fire isn't in discussion right now, God's love is. How about you put forth some efford to keep on topic?

 

[groktruth]

interesting thoughts...so you think that ideas and expressing ideas that are scriptural but lack specific words in scripture is futile? I'm asking for some clarifications before someone accuses me of anything else.

Well, I hope to avoid what I think, and to focus on what I believe I hear God saying. Now, we have the commandment from the Spirit:

1 Tim 6: 3-4. "If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,...he is proud knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,... From such withdraw yourself." and,

2 Tim 2:23. "But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife."

I hear, I hope correctly, that the Lord wants His own, in the fear of Him, to express their love of Him by keeping or attending carefully to these commandments.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, I hope to avoid what I think, and to focus on what I believe I hear God saying. Now, we have the commandment from the Spirit:

1 Tim 6: 3-4. "If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, THE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,...he is proud knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,... From such withdraw yourself." and,

2 Tim 2:23. "But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife."

I hear, I hope correctly, that the Lord wants His own, in the fear of Him, to express their love of Him by keeping or attending carefully to these commandments.

I don't disagree with this, but I do disagree with the extent to which so people interpret these passage. For example, some people read these passages and say, opps, can't talk about the game last night because that would be wrong....or can't discuss the differences in scriptural understanding because that would be foolish disputes. I personally find there to be a balance in scripture on these matters. (more from examples than from specific passages) for example in this thread, after it became apparent that certain parts of this discussion were not gonna be addressed by certain posters, I stopped posting replies to them after I was confident I was clear in what I was saying. If new arguments were presented, no problem, but when the same old tired non listening stuff came up, I just ignored it. In this way, I can be sure that I am above reproach in my presentation of scripture (clear communication) and at the same time, not be a part of foolish disputes. Others think that the second or third time an issue arrises, it's foolish dispute, but then how do you know your communication is clear? Personally I think there is a balance and I'm better that occasionally, Jesus and the disciples talked about the football game, but the focus on their lives was spiritual life.

 

[Light hearted]

Aren't you a born again believer?

Bingo, you finally hit it. I was wondering for over 2000 posts now if anyone was going to ask the question. Ozell and I had many conversations way back when. Unless his belief has changed, he did not have the same belief of the Holy Spirit endwelling in the believer.

I didn't want to change the topic of the post, but every time I see the use of "brother" or "sister , I cringe.

My understanding of his "born again" term may be my missunderstanding. So I ask that he briefly describes the term "born again".

If his belief is as it was, or as I interperted it back then, may help bring a conclusion to this debate. Otherwise, carry on, I do enjoy the discussion.

Lighthearted

 

[razzelflabben]

Bingo, you finally hit it. I was wondering for over 2000 posts now if anyone was going to ask the question. Ozell and I had many conversations way back when. Unless his belief has changed, he did not have the same belief of the Holy Spirit endwelling in the believer.

I didn't want to change the topic of the post, but every time I see the use of "brother" or "sister , I cringe.

My understanding of his "born again" term may be my missunderstanding. So I ask that he briefly describes the term "born again".

If his belief is as it was, or as I interperted it back then, may help bring a conclusion to this debate. Otherwise, carry on, I do enjoy the discussion.

Lighthearted

That seemed obvious from his posts...even the very first ones he presented spoke loud and clear about his non belief. I am interested in knowing more about his specific beliefs but he claims they are too much even for the forum rules so I stopped pushing for more info.

So what is your take on God's love, lighthearted?

 

[ozell]

IF:

Introducing a conditional clause: on the condition or supposition that; in the event that. (with past tense) implying that the condition is not fulfilled.

Even though.

Whenever.

Whether.

Expressing wish or surprise.

Expressing request. With implied reservation; perhaps not. Expression of regret.

Man should go to church for one reason. That is, to learn the purpose for salvation, and how to obtain it, and do it. Because it is set forth by the faith of Abraham in scriptures.

 

[ozell]

GAL.3:29 And if ye be Christ&#8217;s, then are ye Abraham&#8217;s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(If the Old Testament is done away with, so is Abraham seed, which is Christ, the judge, lawgiver, King, man&#8217;s savior, Holy One, the creator of Israel.)

ISAIAH 33:22 For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our King;he will save us.

ISAIAH 43:15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

HEB.2v9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (by righteousness

(GEN.15:6) was Abraham established)

 

[ozell]

GEN.26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

LUKE 13:28 (Blessed by obedience)
28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Abraham, the faithful, obeyed the terms of the covenant, and set the path back to the garden of Eden, and the tree of life, for all the faithful. Be glad, and walk in the faith of Abraham.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

 

[razzelflabben]

IF:

Introducing a conditional clause: on the condition or supposition that; in the event that. (with past tense) implying that the condition is not fulfilled.

Even though.

Whenever.

Whether.

Expressing wish or surprise.

Expressing request. With implied reservation; perhaps not. Expression of regret.

Man should go to church for one reason. That is, to learn the purpose for salvation, and how to obtain it, and do it. Because it is set forth by the faith of Abraham in scriptures.

If the only thing you are interested in is salvation, your missing God and you aren't dwelling in His love. (scripture tells us to dwell in HIs love)

 

[ozell]

GEN.12v1) Now the Lord had said unto Abram, get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father&#8217;s house, unto a land that I will show thee. (2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: (3) and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

GEN.46:2-4; DEUT.4:7,8,34; 26;5 (THE PROMISE)

GEN.22v15) And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, (16) and said, by myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: (17) that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; (18) and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.(Blessed by obedience to the promise)

EX.3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, thus shall thou say unto the children of Israel, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hast sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

NUM.15v15) One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourned with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations:as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord. (16) One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you. (One God, One law, One manner)