Jesus Fulfilled The Sacrificial System

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well define for me what is the consequence of sin?

I haven't argued that people should ignore the merits of their behaviour at all, but that our "sins" are forgiven for a reason. The more we focus on them the closer we creep to that same edge.

Yeshua said "your sins are forgiven BUT GO AND SIN NO MORE"

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Rather, the Law is not necessary for salvation.

It never was...

 

[mark kennedy]

Dating the Bible - Wikipedia

Scroll down to table IV.

Left side dates are speculation as to when the original texts MAY have been authored, but nobody knows for sure since there are no original texts in existence. We haven't even found copies written in Hebrew or Aramaic. The far right side dates are the earliest known papyri, which range from 125 - 400 years AFTER Jesus.

What most people don't stop to consider is the sheer amount of time between the speculative dates and the earliest known papyrus for each book. All of those far right side dates are what all NT's are founded on.

Every single word in the NT is a Greek copy of another copy of unknown origin, written by an unidentified copywriter....hundreds of years later.

There's a fragment of John that's the earliest known at 125 - 160CE.

Taking all of this into consideration, we have no idea just how many copies exist, who wrote them or even how accurate they are to the original texts...none of which have ever been found.

Let's face it, these weren't trained Sofer...they were everyday normal people copying these texts and it's why there are so many contradictions found in the NT.

I'm not saying that the entire NT is inaccurate, but corroborating texts are absolutely needed not only to support their validity but also to support their accuracy.

And if anyone is making the claim of "Jesus said" publicly, then that passage had better be coming from one of Jesus 12 apostles and was actually an eyewitness of the event.

Not doing so would be irresponsible.

You have to appreciate the fact that those scrolls were attached to living people spanning three continents. The enormous number of copies and the fact that they do not deviate by more then a couple of percentage points should be telling you something. So you get a letter from Paul and you read it to the church, another church wants to read the letter to their church. Are you going to send them the scroll or make a copy? The papyrus wasn't all that durable and after it being passed around a while it would start to show signs of wear and tear. A copy was in order, one of the oldest books is John Mark's gospel and he was a Levite, the Jews were well acquainted with how to make an accurate copy, their synagogues all had sacred scrolls.

Bibliographical testing calls for the closest to the original being considered the most accurate. There is a thing about that, of the 30,000 extant scrolls they diverge only in spelling and grammar the vast majority of the time. There is nothing from antiquity to compare the Scriptures to.

As far as the dating it's going to go the way of archaeology and the other academics that got away with dismissing the Scriptures for so long.

 

[mdamon0501]

Yeshua said "your sins are forgiven BUT GO AND SIN NO MORE"

This story that you are quoting, (the Adulterous woman) there is good evidence it wasn't in the original New Testament, so you should really question its validity.

 

[mark kennedy]

I seriously don't understand what happened to this thread. Let's think a minute about Leviticus, there is the Burnt Offering, Thanksgiving Offering, Sin Offering and a couple of others, that would appear to be meaningless at this point. The burnt offering is completely consumed so that's the death of the old nature. The sin offering represented the atonement, propitiation and expiation of sin which was central. The sacrifice of the peace offering was a pretty solid example of a fellowship sacrifice since it was eaten before the Lord, not altogether unlike the thanksgiving offering.

There's a pattern here that gives us a look into how salvation works but no one is interested in that. I'm still trying to figure out when the concept of Bible study went out of fashion.

 

[GUANO]

I think the more accurate term is that He fulfilled the Hebrew Rite of Sin Offering. =P

 

[Jair Crawford]

I seriously don't understand what happened to this thread. Let's think a minute about Leviticus, there is the Burnt Offering, Thanksgiving Offering, Sin Offering and a couple of others, that would appear to be meaningless at this point. The burnt offering is completely consumed so that's the death of the old nature. The sin offering represented the atonement, propitiation and expiation of sin which was central. The sacrifice of the peace offering was a pretty solid example of a fellowship sacrifice since it was eaten before the Lord, not altogether unlike the thanksgiving offering.

There's a pattern here that gives us a look into how salvation works but no one is interested in that. I'm still trying to figure out when the concept of Bible study went out of fashion.

I can see that in a prophetic way, but I do not hold to a literal interpretation of Leviticus in that God literally commanded the sacrifices because there are too many paralells to pagan sacrificial rites in other parts of the Ancient Near East and that has always bothered me.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

This story that you are quoting, (the Adulterous woman) there is good evidence it wasn't in the original New Testament, so you should really question its validity.

Oh, how convenient for you...LOL, oh and you know that how? I hope you read Greek...

 

[Steve Petersen]

LOL, oh and you know that how? I hope you read Greek...

Comma Johanneum - Wikipedia

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Comma Johanneum - Wikipedia

I think you wanted this?
Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia

 

[Steve Petersen]

I think you wanted this?
Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia

Hello? Operator? Give me Pennsylvania 6-5000.

 

[mark kennedy]

I can see that in a prophetic way, but I do not hold to a literal interpretation of Leviticus in that God literally commanded the sacrifices because there are too many paralells to pagan sacrificial rites in other parts of the Ancient Near East and that has always bothered me.

The idea of sacrifice bothers me period. Sure, it causes some problems but those have largely been solved, at least for Christians.

 

[Ron Gurley]

The sacrificial system for Nation Israel has NOT ended.

Daniel 11:31
Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation. (anti-christ)

Daniel 12:11
From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

For true believers, we are living under the "NEW COVENANT".

The NEW "COVENANT":

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup which is poured out FOR you is the "new covenant" in My blood.

covenant...Greek 1242...diatheke...II.a compact, ("contract"?), a testament
E.G. A.God's covenant with Noah, etc.

In form, a covenant is an agreement between two people and involves promises on the part of each to the other. The concept of a covenant between God and His people is one of the central themes of the Bible. In the Biblical sense, a covenant implies much more than a contract or a simple agreement between two parties.

REF: Five Great Bible Covenants (Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Christ)

Five Great Bible Covenants:

1. God's Covenant With Noah

2. God's Covenant With Abraham

3. The Mosaic Covenant (God with Moses)

4. God's Covenant With David

5. The Covenant Of Jesus the Christ with Believers

 

[Shek]

The enormous number of copies and the fact that they do not deviate by more then a couple of percentage points should be telling you something.

Are you kidding?

194 Contradictions New Testament

Paul and Luke easily have the greatest number of contradictions, no surprise though considering neither of them knew Jesus.

Mark at least had some credence since he was Peter's disciple, but these texts aren't just a couple of percentage points off. You'll see that when you thoroughly review all of these contradictions.

This list doesn't even include all of the non-eyewitness testimony that cannot be corroborated.

 

[Ron Gurley]

The are no contradictions in Scripture as to any MAJOR DOCTRINAL TRUTH! IT is possible to nit pick Scripture for unspiritual perceived contradictions.

The entire 4 gospels and most of Acts is based on directly observed or accurately reported eye witness testimony / evidence.

 

[Ron Gurley]

1. ALL were eyewitnesses/news hearers to the RISEN Jesus the Divine Messaiah (even Paul on the road to Damascus: Acts 9!)

2. ALL were the beneficiaries of strong Jewish "oral tradition" "historians", carefully passed on verbal accounts.

3. ALL were spirit-led and superintended by God The Holy Spirit... PERFECT SPIRIT-LED RECALL!

John 14:26...The TRI-UNE GOD at work!
But the "Helper", (God) the Holy Spirit,
whom (God) the Father will send in My (God the Son's)name,
He will teach you all things,
and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.(and DID!)

Luke 24:44..Jesus' post-resurrection Super Bible Study!
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Luke 24...Holy Heart-burn for 2 on the road to Emmaeus...another Super Bible Study!
25 And He said to them,
“O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets,
He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures....
32 They (the 2) said to one another,
“Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road,
while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”

John 2:22
So when He was raised from the dead,
His disciples remembered that He said this;
and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

 

[Shek]

The entire 4 gospels and most of Acts is based on directly observed or accurately reported eye witness testimony / evidence.

Acts is highly disputed since the book has an anonymous author. But if Luke was the author, he certainly didn't witness anything recorded in it. That especially includes Paul's vision on the road to Damascus. Luke didn't even know Saul then, he came into the picture much later.

3. ALL were spirit-led and superintended by God The Holy Spirit... PERFECT SPIRIT-LED RECALL!

Uh huh...

Acts 9:17 Greek Text Analysis

Luke didn't even know Saul until much later when he changed his name to Paul. So if Luke isn't the eyewitness recording this event...who is? If the author cannot be determined, then the testimony is hearsay and cannot be validated.

Acts 9:7 Greek Text Analysis

= His men hear the voice, but don't see the light.

Acts 22:9 Greek Text Analysis

= His men did not hear the voice, but they see the light. 100% opposite story now. This is Saul bearing witness to the event to a group of people.

Acts 26:14 Greek Text Analysis

= Bearing witness to Agrippa, the story changes again and now everybody falls down and a new claim is made...

Acts 26:16 Greek Text Analysis

= And then doesn't send him to Damascus...

Acts 26:17 Greek Text Analysis

= No mention of blindness and no mention of his men seeing or hearing anything....

That doesn't look like "perfect recall" to me. Paul's story changed repeatedly.

The entire 4 gospels and most of Acts is based on directly observed or accurately reported eye witness testimony / evidence.

Hearsay is NOT evidence. You'd need at least 2 eyewitnesses backing anything that cannot be validated. Without it, it's not scripture... it's rumor.

Deuteronomy 19:15 Hebrew Text Analysis

 

[mark kennedy]

Are you kidding?

194 Contradictions New Testament

Paul and Luke easily have the greatest number of contradictions, no surprise though considering neither of them knew Jesus.

Mark at least had some credence since he was Peter's disciple, but these texts aren't just a couple of percentage points off. You'll see that when you thoroughly review all of these contradictions.

This list doesn't even include all of the non-eyewitness testimony that cannot be corroborated.

I've searched out those apparent contradictions endlessly, never seen one that could stand up to close scrutiny. There isn't a dimes worth of difference between the originals and while I'll happily look at these supposed contradictions I don't expect much.

 

[Shek]

I've searched out those apparent contradictions endlessly, never seen one that could stand up to close scrutiny.

Didn't look very hard....here's the first one.

Luke 3:31 Greek Text Analysis

Matthew 1:6 Greek Text Analysis

Sons of David - Wikipedia

• Nathan (son of David), Bathsheba the ancestor of Jesus according to the Genealogy of Jesus in Luke 3:31, considered by some to be the maternal line via Heli, possible father of Mary.

• Solomon, Bathsheba, the ancestor of Jesus according to the Genealogy of Jesus in Matthew, often considered to be Joseph's line.

Outright contradiction of Jesus' genealogy.

 

[HypnoToad]

Didn't look very hard....here's the first one.

Luke 3:31 Greek Text Analysis

Matthew 1:6 Greek Text Analysis

Sons of David - Wikipedia

• Nathan (son of David), Bathsheba the ancestor of Jesus according to the Genealogy of Jesus in Luke 3:31, considered by some to be the maternal line via Heli, possible father of Mary.

• Solomon, Bathsheba, the ancestor of Jesus according to the Genealogy of Jesus in Matthew, often considered to be Joseph's line.

Outright contradiction of Jesus' genealogy.

No contradiction. Joseph was descendant from Solomon, Mary was descendant from Nathan, making both Solomon and Nathan ancestors to Jesus.