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Jesus forms the way of discipleship

Discussion in 'Discipleship: Following Jesus' started by ~Zao~, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Caleb was God’s servant that followed God fully, being of a different spirit, Numbers 14:24
    But My servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit in him and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land where he went, and his descendants shall inherit it.​
    Caleb was awarded the inheritance of Hebron Joshua 14:13 which is where Sarah was laid to rest Genesis 23:2,19 and where David first abode and began reigning. 2 Samuel 5
    [ David Reigns over All Israel ] Then all the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and spoke, saying, “Indeed we are your bone and your flesh. Also, in time past, when Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel out and brought them in; and the Lord said to you, ‘You shall shepherd My people Israel, and be ruler over Israel.’ ” Therefore all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord. And they anointed David king over Israel. …​
    I’m not quite understanding your point @Dave_W
     
  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    That Moses was already excluded from entering the Promised Land before he struck the rock in anger.
     
  3. ~Zao~

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    Deut 32:51-52 supplies God’s point of view

    “This is because . . . you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel.”
     
  4. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Yes I know that. But he was already excluded.

    IOW, if he was still able to go in, the incident with the striking the rock would have kept him out.
     
  5. ~Zao~

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    So we have God’s answer that said it was at Meribeh Numbers 20:10-13, Deuteronomy 32:51-52 but you claim it happened earlier without providing any text? hmm Anyway I’m sure it makes no difference to the original post about getting ahead of God.
    Jesus forms the way of discipleship
     
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  6. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Numbers 14
    20 So the Lord said, “I have pardoned them according to your word; 21 but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord. 22 Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23 shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24 But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.
    ...
    28 Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord, ‘just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will surely do to you; 29 your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me. 30 Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 Your children, however, whom you said would become a prey—I will bring them in, and they will know the land which you have rejected. 32 But as for you, your corpses will fall in this wilderness. 33 Your sons shall be shepherds for forty years in the wilderness, and they will suffer for your unfaithfulness, until your corpses lie in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, even forty years, and you will know My opposition.

    the ONLY 2 guys over age 20 that God said would be let in were Joshua and Caleb.
    Moses was NOT listed as an exception.
     
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  7. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Yes, right, it seems He did as He pleased from the beginning. Not trusting was the crime of the congregation and why Moses called them rebels. Then Moses himself was given more specific reasoning a few chapters later.
    Numbers 14
    6 And Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, who were of them that spied out the land, rent their clothes: 7 and they spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to spy it out, is an exceeding good land.

    8 If Jehovah delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it unto us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.

    9 Only rebel not against Jehovah, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is removed from over them, and Jehovah is with us: fear them not.

    10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of Jehovah appeared in the tent of meeting unto all the children of Israel.

    11 And Jehovah said unto Moses, How long will this people despise me? and how long will they not believe in me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them?

    12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a nation greater and mightier than they.

    13 And Moses said unto Jehovah, Then the Egyptians will hear it; for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them; 14 and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that thou Jehovah art in the midst of this people; for thou Jehovah art seen face to face, and thy cloud standeth over them, and thou goest before them, in a pillar of cloud by day, and in a pillar of fire by night.

    15 Now if thou shalt kill this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying, 16 Because Jehovah was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.

    17 And now, I pray thee, let the power of the Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, 18 Jehovah is slow to anger, and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; and that will by no means clear [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation.

    19 Pardon, I pray thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy lovingkindness, and according as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
     
  8. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Do not eat of this fruit!

    The limitation in the purpose of God was wholly benificiant and intended to hold humans within the sphere in which they could make progress toward the largest and fullest possibility of being.
    (The enemy said it was God’s intention and desire to thwart this forward progress. The enemy created a malicious, false accusation that appealed to the intellect, was calculated to change the attitude of emotion, and so capture the final stronghold of the will)

    Originally the unfilled condition had been placed in circumstances of probation. The stronghold is our wills. It’s still for me to decide whether I will abide in a relationship with God, ensuring my fullest realization of personality, or whether I, by severance from God, encompass my own ruin.

    If this were never offered the highest fact of my being would have atrophied. For will power, having no choices, ceases to be of value.

    The forbidden fruit is to remind me of my limited freedom within the government of God.

    The actual fall was that of independent action. By listening to the tempter in doubting God’s love, and deciding to act against the expressed will of God in eating the forbidden fruit caused the will to turn from it’s proper channel. (The proper will being that of community of action with the will of God) Thereby plunging the will into a channelless rush of undetermined and ungoverned activity.

    What was the issue of that act? “He drove the man out”
    First man=Adam (male and female)

    Fallen humans passed into a region where the essential powers of being could find no fitting field of operation. The largest and fullest possibility of being, which are the essential facts of the person, was placed outside of the true sphere.

    Separation from that fellowship with God impaired the holiness of character and prevented co-operation with God. Co-operation with God is the condition of righteous conduct. In so doing the will of mankind was magnificently ruined.

    Out of this dire and resolute ruin God hears the call for a deliverer.

    The great principle of Psalms 115:4-8 that mankind is always like their god was becoming evident in mankind’s creating them on the pattern of themselves rather than on the pattern of God. Projecting into immensity mankind’s own distorted vision of himself. Hosea 13:2, Ephesians 2:12

    Mankind became degraded by his own false conception and being without God, therefor without hope. God is near to everyone but the dead spirit isn’t conscious of the nearness. Yet one who doesn’t know God also doesn’t know themselves and is therefore not able to recognize the true ideal.

    The need is to take the false lines down that lead to mankind projected into immensity and replace them with the lines that lead straight the way to the Father. The Godhead of the divine in life is the only sure road.

    (adapted from numerous G. Campbell Morgan books)
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  9. LoveAvenue

    LoveAvenue New Member

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    Perhaps Adam wanted to explore the world around him, we know that he willingly, knowingly sinned and was not tricked or deceived. Eve, however, was deceived and tricked into committing the sin act.

    Does it seem that Adam did not take the commandment of God seriously and was irresponsible ? We can look at what Adam experienced and what transpired and see how the fallen man is determined to follow in his footsteps.

    Were it not for the love and mercy of God there would be no escape from eternal damnation.
     
  10. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Adam was classified as male and female, Mr and Mrs Adam were held responsible together. In fact, still in the court of law today one cannot testify against another.
    "the spousal privileges have their roots in the legal fiction that a husband and wife were one person."
    That has always been the way of God also. Abraham and Sarah, combined, produced the child of promise. Not one or the other.
    The child of promise according to Galatians 4 is the means to the inheritance of Christianity.
    What your suggesting is human speculation that results in human understanding that is not rooted in God’s understanding.
     
  11. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Genesis 26:22 And he removed from thence, and digged another well; and for that they strove not: and he called the name of it Rehoboth; and he said, For now the LORD hath made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land.

    “hath made room”
    הִרְחִ֧יב

    John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

    S# 5562 chóreó: to make room, advance, hold
    Original Word: χωρέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: chóreó
    Phonetic Spelling: (kho-reh'-o)
    Definition: to make room, advance, hold
    Usage: (lit: I make room, hence) (a) I have room for, receive, contain, (b) I make room for by departing, go, make progress, turn myself.

    5562 xōréō – properly, make space (place, room); (figuratively) to live with an open heart – i.e. with "available space" that embraces the "more important" . . . not just the "urgent"!​

    I was looking into the meaning of yeshu’ah which is a root word for salvation, and which means “to be broad or spacious” “to have room.” It brought to mind the above verses from the old and new testaments.

    The first is about Isaac’s experience of finding room amongst the Philistines. But the second made me think about no room ever being made for Christ at all! And yet now Christ fills the whole earth almost, due to the expansion caused by His own.

    Christians have been granted room to breath and live as human beings which is our heritage, and for that, especially in the west, we have much gratitude. But even where times are hard Hearts have been granted open space to grow and learn. Peace can rule in our hearts no matter what the outside circumstances. Thank you Lord

    Psalms 4:1
    Answer me when I call, O God of my right!
    You gave me room when I was in distress.
    Be gracious to me, and hear my prayer.


    .
     
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  12. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Grace Appropriated

    Grace is appropriated at the throne in drawing near with confidence. Receive His mercy and find grace for all your needs. Grace upon grace, given through the truth that is in Jesus Chris. Return from your unfaithfulness, confident that you won’t be rejected, for He is faithful.

    The grace of God has appeared, separate from the law, and it brings a hope that doesn’t put to shame … rather the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the One who comforts us in all our trouble so that we can find comfort for other people who are themselves in every kind of despair.

    Grace is seen in salvation where we all are treated as righteous freely thu the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Where sin abounded grace multiplies even more.

    Therefore we live in a state of Grace where sin has not dominion : for your not under the Law, but under Grace. Thru Faith we have this Grace wherein we stand, rejoicing in the Hope of the Glory of God.

    God’s operating principal thru Christ Jesus is not in seeking to be justified by the Law, for no one is justified by the Law. Indeed that’s an estrangement from Christ and a falling from Grace. Rather Grace provides for our daily needs out of His Riches in the Glory that is found in Christ Jesus, and ours as we appropriate it at the Throne of Grace,
     
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  13. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    One of the tools to 'deny thyself' is to ‘reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God’ because that is truly how the Father sees us in Christ. Every time that conscience reveals sin in our minds is an opportunity to take it to our Mediator. Every time we take it to Him He is faithful to forgive and we are once again as white as snow. Seventy times seven He forgives those sins, according to human understanding, so no matter how long it takes He is faithful as we are faithful. Soon it’ll start to become apparent that sins are disappearing from our lives because He has taken them from us as we have asked. We’ll notice that the thought comes but action doesn’t follow, and before we know it (literally) the thoughts of sin disappear too. But many are sins yet even so much time with the Lord has it’s way.

    Reckoning yourself dead to sin is just Paul’s way of saying accept the imputation provided by Christ and accepted by the Father. Hebrews 10:4, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Corinthians 1:30 are verses showing how the transaction is viewed. That which Christ imputes into His believers, see Colossians 2:9-10. It’s thru faith that His righteousness is accounted to us (which is what reckon means) and that which the Father has accepted and placed into our account. It’s how we are viewed.

    Psalms 32:1-2
    Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
    Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.​

    The reasoning is that as often as the 'old self' arises we are to again to reckon it dead and look to Christ thereby 'putting on' the new self’

    Romans 13:12-14
    The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light.
    14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
    Galatians 5:17
    For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.​
     
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  14. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Romans 3:22 God’s righteousness comes through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who have faith in him. There’s no distinction. 23 All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory,​

    Righteousness comes thru faith in Christ. It’s His faith, in us, that has become the faith by which we believe in Him. Romans 2:26, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 3:12, Philippians 3:20

    Faith has an object ~Jesus Christ~ He is the faith and becomes the faith within us. He is God’s righteousness and God has given Him as righteousness to those who are indwell by Him. Jeremiah 23:6 that which comes from faith that is in Him and of Him Hebrews 12:2

    James 2:1
    My brothers and sisters, when you show favouritism you deny the faithfulness of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has been resurrected in glory.​

    Therefore righteousness is a product of faith. We are justified by faith to receive the divine life Romans 5:18

    Justification by works is carried out thru the divine life, only. That only can be seen as righteousness. The tree of life must bring forth fruit. The first is the cause and the second the effect, therefore the outcome and proof of of the other. It’s the expression of the life of faith.

    The term justification is in the accomplished work of Christ, while to be justified to carry on His work is within His righteousness. Sanctification, as an ongoing process, is for our Christian living and is seen in His righteousness when we act from that place. Which can also be very revealing to others concerning their faith.

    So righteousness, justification, and faith are a product (of saving grace) while sanctification is a process (of grace upon grace) John 1:16 or faith upon faith, or glory upon glory. Romans 1:17, 2 Corinthians 3:16-18

    We are justified from the heart not from assent of the mind Romans 10:10

    For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

    Food for thought.
     
  15. Martyr's Crown

    Martyr's Crown Sunflower Jewel

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    God's power, when seen and experienced; will always leave one with a "wow". And it will confirm to us, that only He is the true and only God there is!

    We see this throughout His Word; people who worshipped other gods, and then experienced God's power above the ones which their own gods could not overpower, realizing that only He was and is the God which is above any other gods, knowing only He is the true God!

    This is how powerful God is, as no one can ever overpower Him! And anyone who ever experiences His power, will for sure know who "I Am" is! :)
     
  16. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Amen! God’s expectations are toward holiness. God does so many good things for us, yet receives rebellion in return. Since He created the whole world His dealings are either from chastisement (being mother, father and husband to those He loves) or from judgement based on His righteousness toward the people He created. He deals with His elect in love to bring them to holiness. Judgement comes to those who are neither just (without mercy) nor righteous, whom God judges according to His own Righteousness.
    His holiness wasn’t able to advance from Moses’ unrighteousness. (Is my take on it) I guess that’s why we have the Ot as an example for us. The law and prophets have all given way to our Lord Jesus Christ. Our need is for both His love and His mercy.
     
  17. Martyr's Crown

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    Can you explain for me why you think this way?

    Thank you! :heartbeat:
     
  18. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    The Lord had been developing Moses throughout his lifetime for the task of leading the Israelites out of Egypt and into the promised land. He was the representative of the law. In comparison Elijah was the representative of the prophets. Let’s sidestep a bit to look at the performance on Mt. Carmen. The false prophets were trying to manipulate the gods by invoking spiritual forces to obey their will. Elijah’s approach was to make it clear Who was supreme and that their methods were a joke and repulsive to God in treating Him that way.

    "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" suggesting that he and Aaron would use pagan rites to force God into giving them water, instead of publicly acknowledging the Lord as the supreme power rather than himself and Aaron. He had just undermined all God’s teachings about His absolute sovereignty! Moses’ desire was to show his own authority! There was no glory to God in that and underscored the responsibilities of leadership by undermining all of what God had been teaching them about his absolute sovereignty.

    Moses desired to show his own authority and failed to give God the glory. He was acting like a Baal priest that thinks they control the sSpirits. It was a public sin and underscored the responsibilities of leadership. God honoured Moses with a vision of the promised land but He didn’t relent on His demand to be treated as Sovereign Lord.
     
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  19. Martyr's Crown

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    This is something I have got a lot in mind last times, although it will remain a constant reminder for me. As the old self comes back to me, to remind me of how I was and what I had. But I keep on reminding myself of being a new creature in Christ, and everything I used to be in the past is no longer how I am now.

    Everything which I had which I considered as mine and then were taken from me, then I remind myself of the new body in Christ which is awaiting me in heaven, as well as everything God will give me in the future will be much better than all of my losses!

    Stay blessed in Christ Jesus!
     
  20. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    There's many ways of having things taken; from material things, to loved ones, or self respect to confidence to survive another day. He never said it would be easy, just worth it, even tho we can’t see what's beyond our limited perspective. Hope in glory, whatever that means is forever based in trust.
    In a way God's like the army. He strips everything away to build us up again. But in a new, better and stronger way thru faith in His faithfulness to us and when we’re willing for the change. Nobody likes the wilderness of going around in circles for 40 yrs. Full enrolment in the school of life. I can’t imagine a more fit description of purgatory as that played out on earth. It’s good to hear your optimism against the flesh and preconceived ideas of what we deem to be our rights here on earth.
    I think that God gives what we need in material things to the level that will keep our faith and removes that which will work to strengthen more.
     
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