Please over look my typos. I believe this is the longest post I ever put forth.
Philip said:
Are we to conlcude from this that Christ is not God? It seems to be the only logical conclusion from your statement.
Its not a logical conclusion. The logical conclusion is that you have swallowed some church dogma on a superficial level, ignored what the Word tells us, and are sticking to what you have been told as being the Word of God. That is what logic dictates here.
God the Son incarnate in flesh did indeed die on the cross. The humanity and Diety of Christ cannot be divided.
Well, when his body lay in the grave and Jesus's soul was preaching in Tartarus? Was the body (flesh) of Jesus really dead? Or did he just feign death? You need to do some serious thinking here. Do you read your Bible often? All of it? Here is what Peter tells us about the flesh of Jesus right after the crucifixion...
1 Peter 3:18-20 niv
"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water..."
While the body of Jesus lay in the grave, his soul was in Hades preaching to the spirits who rebelled during the time of Noah! If his flesh is God, then his flesh could not die!
The humanity (body, soul) of Jesus is God's point of contact and expression to man, about who and what he is to man. Without this point of contact we can not know God properly!
John 5:37 niv
"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form."
We must see God through the medium of expression of Christ's humanity! No man can see God in his unaltered state! That is what Jesus just said! No one has ever heard his voice nor seen his form. God took up permanent residence in Jesus, and when Jesus speaks,
it is God speaking.
John 14:9 niv
"Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? "
Deity would not have to take up permanent residence in Jesus Christ if man were never created. Jesus Christ was in God's plan as the perfect means to reveal himself to man, in a manner which could be perfectly understood by men. Jesus Christ is God having the perfect interpreter of who and what God is to man.
John 1:18
18No man has ever seen God at any time; the only uniquely begotten Son, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him.
He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known."
The Greek word that appears in John 1:18. declares that Jesus Christ interprets God to man, and makes God known to man via interpretation. God is not man. Jesus is the perfect man. Because his flesh contains no sin, God can express through him all he wants us to know about God, in ways and terms we can relate to. It is God speaking through Christ, and
IN Christ. They are inseparable forever. The only point at which there was separation was when Jesus body lay in the tomb. From now on, Jesus is glorified (can never die) and will always be inseparable from God. When jesus speaks, its God speaking. The humanity of Christ is by God's design the means to communicate who and what he is to other humanity. To hate Jesus is to hate God. For Jesus only expresses God towards us. But he does so in a manner that God can be understood (interprets) by man.
There is not a human part of Christ and a Divine part of Christ. His flesh died. That flesh was both human and Divine.
His flesh was not glorified before the Cross! He had to be as a man! We are no longer to know Jesus (as he is now) after the flesh that once walked the earth!
2 Corinthians 5:16
"Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;
even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer."
The body now Jesus possesses is no longer the same flesh he was born into from Mary! When he ascended he was transformed into a body of Heaven. His first body was of the earth! Many stumble over this one, I know. Its because they do not stick with the Word and blindly cling to superficial church dogma. Denominations exist because men refuse correction.
1 Corinthians 15:35-40 niv
" But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised?
With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another."
We are citizens of Heaven! No longer of the earth! Our bodies will be just like the glorious heavenly body of Christ Jesus!
Philippians 3:20-21 niv
"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control,
will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."
We are to no longer know Jesus after the flesh! For he is no longer a man from the earth (Adam), but he is now possessing a Heavenly Body! For when we are in heaven we will be of Heaven! Right now we are from the earth, so we have a body of the earth! It was when Jesus ascended to Heaven that he was glorified! Just as many will be transformed at the Rapture, the first body of Jesus was transformed as he ascended! He now has a Heavenly Body. He is no longer a mere man of the earth. The fullness of Deity is manifested now in bodily form. No longer does Jesus put aside his Deity and submit all he is to the Father's will. His Deity and the father are one. Jesus now directs all the goings on in the universe via his own Deity. The Father has handed over to the Son all power and authority. He is doing this until he makes all his enemies his footstool. After he finishes making all his enemies his footstool, once again will he hand back to the Father all power and authority through the Father!
1 Corinthians 15:24-25 niv
"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."
You are making a false division of Christ. His humanity is not limited to His flesh. His Divinity is not excluded from His flesh. The body, divine and human, died. The spirit, divine and human, lived.
You are speaking of Christ as he now is. Glorified. Many miss the point of how the Son had to become prior to the Cross. He had to die in our place. God can not die for man! That is why Philippians explains how he had to deny his Deity while he walked in preparation for the Cross. Many confuse the way Christ now is, with the way he had to become prior to his sacrifice. His flesh died! He no longer has the same flesh! It is a heavenly body. Our bodies are made of the elements of the dust of the earth. This earth is doomed to perish! The body Jesus Christ now possesses is of the elements of Eternal Heaven! We will be given a body just like his own. We are no longer to know Jesus after his earthly flesh! This earth is doomed for destruction! The body of Jesus born of Mary was from the elements of this earth. Like the first Adam's body was!
2 Peter 3:12-13 niv
"as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise
we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness."
Are you stating that Christ lacked a Divine will?
Prior to the Cross, Jesus had to live by his human will. It had to submit to the Father. Jesus was pioneering our faith, and had to become one of us. The faith he walked in has to be the same faith we walk in. If he exercised Divine will, his faith could not be functional to us. His Deity had to be put into neutral (Philippians 2:5-9). This is evident in the following passage we all read, but often times fail to see what it is saying.
Luke 22:42 niv
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me;
yet not my will, but yours be done."
Jesus functioned in his humanity at that time. Yet, he was aware that he is Deity. But he did not function from his Deity. He spoke about being Deity because he understood (by faith) that he is Deity! When the Father so directed, Jesus spoke in a way that exposed his Deity to the world.
John 12:49-50
"For I did not speak of my own accord,
but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Jesus always spoke in the Father's name. We now speak in Jesus name! That is because all power and authority (at this time) have been given to the Son! Now, in Heaven, when Jesus speaks he is directed by his own Deity! The Father has handed all power and authority over to the Son.
He was uniquely begotten before all worlds. This is separated from His Incarnation and birth.
God's plan transcends time. He was always uniquely begotten in God's plan.
God did not "enter the humanity of Christ". You seem to be suggesting that Christ was a physical body occupied by the Divinity. Christ gave up His glory to become Incarnate. I am not even sure what "right to being as God in Christ" means.
He did enter into a body! And, I have been explaining all along what "right to being as God in Christ" means.
This division of Christ's humanity and Deity sounds like Nestorianism.
On a superficial level, it might.
The Spirit descend on Christ at His Baptism to reveal to Israel that He is the Son of God.
The Spirit was also given to enable Jesus to carry out his minstry. For right after his baptism, he was taken into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Jesus could not have endured that with the fullness of grace (enabling of the Holy Spirit) was given him. Jesus was given the Spirit without limit. Why? His own Deity was to be put into neutral. All his directives were to come from the Father, not his own Deity. That is why Satan attempted to temp Jesus to turn the stones into bread. He tried to get Jesus to rebel against the Father's will for his life, and take things into his own control and utilize his own Deity. Jesus refused to turn the stones into bread because the Father allowed him to suffer to test his will. Jesus passed every test. He pleased the Father. Jesus is the only humanity in which the Father was completely pleased. That is why the Father is free to now have the fullness of Deity manifested in Christ... The Deity of Jesus is in full control. The Father is watching (so to speak).
To state that the Spirit was given to Him to empower Him borders on Adoptionism. It denies that Christ was fully God before the Spirit descended on Him. Christ did not have to be empowered. He is fully God.
In order to die in our place (as a man) he was required to give up his right to his own Deity's power. The Holy Spirit was given so that all power came from the Father, not his own Deity.
This passage (Philippians 2:5-9) says nothing of Christ's Deity beung in neutral. It states that He gave up His glory.
Rreally? Mind showing me that in writing?
Is Christ still fully God and fully man?
Let's end the confusion handed down by church dogma? What does the Scriptures tell us? Christ is fully Deity and fully humanity. Yet, before the Cross, his Deity had to volunteer not to influence his humanity. It was agreed that all influence was to be from the Father. Jesus had to become as a man. For he had to die as our substitute. Not only that, since he lived as a man, he paved the way for us to live by faith in the power of the Spirit! He pioneered our faith. God has no weakness, yet Jesus became like us (by denying his right to the power of his own Deity) and felt our weaknesses and pains. He was tempted, but without sin. It is impossible for Deity to be tempted! If the Deity of Christ was in full control of him he could never had tasted what its like to be tempted. He could never sympathize with us now when we are tempted... God's plan to keep Jesus from the power of his own Deity had many aspects, not one, at work.
Hebrews 2:17-18 niv
"For this reason
he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. "
If Jesus was being fully Deity as he walked the earth, that passage could not have been written. His Deity was fully Deity (of course), but his Deity was not fully in control of the humanity of Christ! His Deity did not stop being Deity (which seems to be your confusion)... His Deity simply refused to be the one ruling over his humanity. All rulership was delegated to the Father! Because of this, Jesus was able to become as one of us (yet without sin). In becoming one of us, he was qualified to die as our substitute on the Cross. If he was fully possessed by his own Deity, he could not die in our place. For he would not be dying as a man. He died for all men, as the perfect man.
Grace and peace, Gene
