Jesus did not CREATE himself

Blackhawk · May 25, 2002

Ed,

"Who among these people is your LORD and SAVIOR?"

none. I was trying to show how the church from its earliest begginings believed in the Trinity. Which I have done for you before Ed.

And Louis is right about what Jesus taught.

Blackhawk

edpobre · May 25, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Ed,

"Who among these people is your LORD and SAVIOR?"

none. I was trying to show how the church from its earliest begginings believed in the Trinity. Which I have done for you before Ed.

And Louis is right about what Jesus taught.

Blackhawk

Are you telling me that you DISAGREE with what Jesus taught in John 8:40 and John 17:3?

To refresh your memory, Jesus said in John 8:40 that he is a MAN and in John 17:3, Jesus revealed that the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

Isn't this what Jesus taught Blackhawk?

Louis said that Jesus taught that he is man and God and this is called incarnation. You said Louis is right.

Can you not understand what Jesus said in John 17:3 Blackhawk? Or have you simply made up your mind that Louis is right and Jesus is wrong?

You say that none of these men is your LORD and SAVIOR. Yet you refuse to BELIEVE what Jesus taught in John 8:40 and John 17:3. Is LouisBooth your LORD and SAVIOR Blackhawk?

Please go over what Jesus taught in John 3:18 and John 3:36 and reconsider your precarious position. I don't think LouisBooth is worth going to hell for.

Ed

Ed[/color][/b]

Blackhawk · May 25, 2002

Jesus is not wrong Ed. You are wrong.

blackhawk

LouisBooth · May 28, 2002

"said in John 17:3 "

Funny how you quote this verse, but not others in that same book.

Lets look at other verses shall we..can you explain the statement The Father and I are ONE?

edpobre · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"said in John 17:3 "

Funny how you quote this verse, but not others in that same book.

Lets look at other verses shall we..can you explain the statement The Father and I are ONE?

LouisBooth,

John 17:3 and John 10:30 are both sayings of Jesus. Hence, they are both true. In interpreting John 10:30, we must be careful that no saying of Jesus is made FALSE by our interprtetation of the verse. Let's put John 17:3 and John 10:30 together and see which of these verses need interpretation then interpret it accordingly.

John 17:3 : "And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT."

John 10:30: "I and the Father are ONE."

John 17:3 is very CLEAR about WHO is God and WHO is NOT. According to Jesus, the FATHER is the ONLY true God who SENT him. The FATHER who is the ONLY true God is the SENDER while Jesus, the SON of the ONLY true God is the MESSENGER.

With this in mind, John 10:30 where Jesus says "I and the Father are ONE" should NOT be interpreted to mean that Jesus and the Father are ONE "God."

Otherwise, it would appear that Jesus was LYING when he said to the FATHER, "that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God..."

Neither should this be interpreted to mean that the Father and Jesus are ONE and the SAME.

Otherwise, it would appear that Jesus is the FATHER who is the ONLY TRUE God who SENDS his SON Jesus who is NOT a true God.

There should be NO DOUBT in anyone's mind that Jesus is NOT God because the Bible teaches that there is ONLY ONE God and God the SENDER cannot be God the messenger. Otherwise, there would be two Gods.

Ed

LouisBooth · May 28, 2002

*sigh* ed you just aren't getting it are you? John (the author) doesn't just make statements and forget what he said does he? Look at John 1 which clearly tell us Christ is God. Do you write hello and forget what you wrote? You're right about one thing. God the sender is not God the messenger. Three in one and one in three. The father is not the son, the son is not the father, but both are God and God is one.

MissytheButterfly · May 29, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Adherents of the FALSE doctrine that Jesus is BOTH true GOD and true MAN fail to realize the absurdity of this belief.

The Bible teaches that it was God who CREATED man (Gen. 1:27). GOD is the single English word that describes the ONE who CREATED everything in heaven and on earth. And MAN is the single English word that describes what God CREATED on the sixth day of creation (Gen. 1:31).

To say then that Jesus is GOD, who CREATED man, and at the same time MAN, who was CREATED by GOD is ABSURD because it would IMPLY that Jesus CREATED himself.

Jesus has categorically stated that he is a MAN (John 8:40). This proves that he is a CREATED being. If so, which GOD created Jesus? Was it God the Father to whom Jesus was praying and whom he identified as the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Or was it Jesus himself who Trinitarians believe is both the CREATOR and the CREATURE at the SAME time?

Ed

In having stated this as you have..Could you please explain what this passage of the bible means:

Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Why does God (the Father) refer to Jesus as God ? And why does he refer to him as Lord ? And why does God (the Father) state that Jesus is the maker of heaven and earth? (and of course we know in the book of Genesis, we see that God is labeled as the maker, but here it seems God is saying Jesus is..)

And how do explain I John 5:7 "For these are 3 that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:and these 3 are one."
Missy

edpobre · Jun 8, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
*sigh* ed you just aren't getting it are you? John (the author) doesn't just make statements and forget what he said does he? Look at John 1 which clearly tell us Christ is God. Do you write hello and forget what you wrote?

We have argued this so many times and no matter how many times you say that John 1 clearly tells us that Christ is God, COMMON SENSE just doesn't support your argument.

Do you agree that apostle John is a DISCIPLE of Christ? And do you believe what Jesus says: that a DISCIPLE is one who "BELIEVES in him" and "ABIDES in his word" (John 8:31 NKJV) or "OBEYS his teaching" (John 8:31 (TEV)?

Apostle John HEARD Jesus say to the FATHER, "And this is ETERNAL LIFE, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God..." As a DISCIPLE of Christ, Apostle John BELIEVED in Jesus and OBEYED his teaching. Otherwise, he wouldn't be a DISCIPLE according to what Jesus said. Right?

Now, several years later, AFTER Jesus died, why would Apostle John, a DISCIPLE of Christ CONTRADICT what he HEARD Jesus say and write in his book that Jesus is God? And to top it all, why did he INCLUDE what he heard Jesus say in the SAME book.

It is also beyond reason why Apostle John would write in his letter that "anyone who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ or does NOT stay in the teaching of Christ, does NOT have God."

You're right about one thing. God the sender is not God the messenger. Three in one and one in three. The father is not the son, the son is not the father, but both are God and God is one.

So you admit that there are TWO separate Gods - God the Father who is the SENDER and God the Son who is MESSENGER, and BOTH are God, right?

Then, why do you say "both are GOD" (singular) instead of "both are GODS" (plural) which is what correct grammar is?

Isn't this the SAME as saying, LouisBooth is the FATHER and Louie is the SON, but BOTH are MAN and MAN is ONE? Or your DOG is a Terrier, mine is a Labrador and hers is a Pitbull but "there are THREE breeds in ONE dog, and ONE dog in THREE breeds?"

Pardon me my friend but this is how I read what you are saying. This my friend, is NOT what the Bible says.

GOD is NOT a CLASSIFICATION nor a SPECIE of "beings." GOD is NOT even a name. GOD is a word that describes the ONLY ONE "being" who CREATED everything including MAN (Gen. 1:1-27). Jesus is a MAN a CREATED "being."

Ed

edpobre · Jun 8, 2002

Originally posted by MissytheButterfly

In having stated this as you have..Could you please explain what this passage of the bible means:

Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Why does God (the Father) refer to Jesus as God ? And why does he refer to him as Lord ? And why does God (the Father) state that Jesus is the maker of heaven and earth? (and of course we know in the book of Genesis, we see that God is labeled as the maker, but here it seems God is saying Jesus is..)

Hebrew 1:8 is NOT the Hebrew writer's first-hand account. He lifted this passage from Psalm 45:6 which is a part of a POEM written for a KING, apparently referring to Jesus, who is fairer than the children of MEN (Psalm 45:1-2).

The CORRECT translation of Psalm 45:6 which should be the CORRECT Heb. 1:8 is: "The KINGDOM which God has given you, will last for ever and ever. You rule your people with justice" (i]Today's English Version[/i]).

This translation CONFORMS with 2 Samuel 7:13-14 which says: "He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he will be my son."

Luke 1:31-33 confirms the fulfillment of Samuel's prophecy, thus: "And, behold, thous halt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shlt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the son of the highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David: And he shall reign over the house of David for ever; and his kingdom there shall be no end."

So you see, you are reading from a version of Heb. 1:8 which was lifted from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. If you go further to Psalm 45:7 (Heb. 1:9) you will notice that God ANOINTED the King with the oil of gladness ABOVE his "fellow-kings", "fellows" or "companions." If Heb. 1:8 were accurate and the King to whom the poem is written is God, then we would have not only TWO Gods but COUNTLERSS Gods because this God (king) has "companiomns" or "fellows."

Heb. 1:10-12 is also NOT the Hebrew writer's own.It is lifted from Psam 102:25-27 which is the Psamist's doxology to God - NOT to Jesus.

And how do explain I John 5:7 "For these are 3 that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:and these 3 are one."
Missy

This verse is considered spurious because it did not appear in manuscripts earlier than the 16th century. The NIV has it: "For there are three that testify." And the TEV has it: "There are three witnesses."

Ed

PrinceJeff · Jun 24, 2002

It is typical of Ed to prooftext scripture to fit his false beliefs.

LouisBooth · Jun 24, 2002

"We have argued this so many times and no matter how many times you say that John 1 clearly tells us that Christ is God, COMMON SENSE just doesn't support your argument. "

*sigh* common sence supports it cleary. It says Logos was God and Logos became flesh. God put flesh on ed. It clearly says Christ is the Logos therefore christ is God. That's just the simple fact of the matter weather you like it or not.

"Now, several years later, AFTER Jesus died, why would Apostle John, a DISCIPLE of Christ CONTRADICT what he HEARD Jesus say and write in his book that Jesus is God? "

That's your problem ed, they don't contradict at all!

"So you admit that there are TWO separate Gods - God the Father who is the SENDER and God the Son who is MESSENGER, and BOTH are God, right? "

*sigh* no ed, I didn't admit that. The three are ONE. Can you not read what I wrote?

"The CORRECT translation "

Until you have a degree in hebrew or greek I will not take your word for what is the "proper" translation. Thanks.

"Pardon me my friend but this is how I read what you are saying. This my friend, is NOT what the Bible says. "

Then you either 1. need to relearn to read or 2. you read it wrong. I gave you a great analogy to describe it. water is not ice and steam is not water, yet all are H20. Three things but one thing.

"). Jesus is a MAN a CREATED "being." "

Wrong again ed. Jesus was not created. Check your greek manuscripts for more details.

Scripture · Mar 14, 2004

I John 5:7

For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, the WORD and the HOLY GHOST and these THREE are ONE. Is that CLEAR enough? It will be interesting to see how Satan choses to explain this verse away...

Diaconeo · Mar 23, 2004

I will leave this a simple post.

1 Jn. 5:20

Phl. 2:5-11

Who do we worship? God alone, or man? If God alone, why do we and the angels worhisp the Man Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour?

in Christ,

Matthew

Eusebios · Mar 23, 2004

edpobre said:
Adherents of the FALSE doctrine that Jesus is BOTH true GOD and true MAN fail to realize the absurdity of this belief.

The Bible teaches that it was God who CREATED man (Gen. 1:27). GOD is the single English word that describes the ONE who CREATED everything in heaven and on earth. And MAN is the single English word that describes what God CREATED on the sixth day of creation (Gen. 1:31).

To say then that Jesus is GOD, who CREATED man, and at the same time MAN, who was CREATED by GOD is ABSURD because it would IMPLY that Jesus CREATED himself.

Jesus has categorically stated that he is a MAN (John 8:40). This proves that he is a CREATED being. If so, which GOD created Jesus? Was it God the Father to whom Jesus was praying and whom he identified as the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Or was it Jesus himself who Trinitarians believe is both the CREATOR and the CREATURE at the SAME time?

Ed

The rules for posting in the "for Christians only" area of these boards requires one to subscribe to the tenents of the Nicene Creed. THe creed states that Christ is "begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was INCARNATE of the Holy Spirit and becameMAN.. ". The idea that He was a created being has LONG
been condemned as heretical.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.

Jesus My Wisdom · Mar 29, 2004

Nick_Loves_Abba said:
Jesusclaimedto be God many times.

I don't see where.

He has reffered to himself as IAM.

I don't see where. But I do see a blind man referred to himself as "I AM" In John 9. Was he God too?

Also, what about John 1:1 ed?

What about it?

JMW

ssms27 · Apr 3, 2004

[

Colossians 2:9. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

The Old Testament does NOT mention any "Godhead." This word is an invention of Trinitarians. As a matter of fact, ONLY the KJV and NKJV versions of the Bible use "Godhead" in this verse.

The Today's English Version renders it DIFFERENTLY, thus: "for the full content of divine nature lives in Christ, in his humanity."

The American Standard Version uses Godhead, so does the Analyitcal literal translation.

How do you interpret the word theotēs in Col 2:9?

Jesus My Wisdom · Apr 3, 2004

ssms27 said:
[

The American Standard Version uses Godhead, so does the Analyitcal literal translation.

How do you interpret the word theotēs in Col 2:9?

It means "the Deity." It is a reference to the Father.

Same idea at Col 1:19.

I have to agree that "Godhead" is somewhat dishonest to use these days. That word has become loaded to imply "Triune God" all by itself. It is a bit unfair to the text because the Greek word does not imply that at all. The Trinity must be inferred from theological reason. There are no words that mean, or even imply, "three in one God" in the NT. So to use this word injects an idea into the text that is not intended in the first place, or at least, it cannot be proven to be intended. Our desires to have it imply the Trinity do not give us a license to color words any way we want.

Another thing people do not realize is that Col 2:9 is NOT a statement Paul would have made about the incarnate and yet unrisen Christ. col 2:9 is a reference to the fullness of his resurrection glory.

JMW

prodromos · Apr 20, 2004

edpobre said:
Adherents of the FALSE doctrine that Jesus is BOTH true GOD and true MAN fail to realize the absurdity of this belief.

The Bible teaches that it was God who CREATED man (Gen. 1:27). GOD is the single English word that describes the ONE who CREATED everything in heaven and on earth. And MAN is the single English word that describes what God CREATED on the sixth day of creation (Gen. 1:31).

To say then that Jesus is GOD, who CREATED man, and at the same time MAN, who was CREATED by GOD is ABSURD because it would IMPLY that Jesus CREATED himself.

Jesus has categorically stated that he is a MAN (John 8:40). This proves that he is a CREATED being. If so, which GOD created Jesus? Was it God the Father to whom Jesus was praying and whom he identified as the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Or was it Jesus himself who Trinitarians believe is both the CREATOR and the CREATURE at the SAME time?

When a man and woman conceive through sexual intercourse, a new person is created who never existed before.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, did not conceive through sexual intercourse with a man, but by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. A new person was not created in her womb, but a person who already existed, God the Son, became flesh.

Jesus is eternally begotten of God the Father without a mother.
Jesus is temporally begotten of the virgin Mary without a father.

As pertains His heavenly nature, He gets it all from God the Father.
As pertains His fleshly nature, He gets it all from His mother, the virgin Mary.

Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% man. If He is not then there is no salvation and we are without hope.

John.

GenemZ · Apr 20, 2004

edpobre said:
Adherents of the FALSE doctrine that Jesus is BOTH true GOD and true MAN fail to realize the absurdity of this belief.

The Bible teaches that it was God who CREATED man (Gen. 1:27). GOD is the single English word that describes the ONE who CREATED everything in heaven and on earth. And MAN is the single English word that describes what God CREATED on the sixth day of creation (Gen. 1:31).

To say then that Jesus is GOD, who CREATED man, and at the same time MAN, who was CREATED by GOD is ABSURD because it would IMPLY that Jesus CREATED himself.

Jesus has categorically stated that he is a MAN (John 8:40). This proves that he is a CREATED being. If so, which GOD created Jesus? Was it God the Father to whom Jesus was praying and whom he identified as the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Or was it Jesus himself who Trinitarians believe is both the CREATOR and the CREATURE at the SAME time?

Ed

You are confusing the humanity of Christ with the Deity of Christ. When the Lord spoke to Moses through the burning bush? Was God then a bush? I ask you, did God create that bush? Yes! And, the bush was not God! Yet, when the Lord communicated, it was Deity speaking by means of the bush as a point of contact with Moses!

Likewise, God created the humanity of Christ to be His dedicated vessel of humanity by which His Deity is to communicate (forever) to creation! Jesus has both perfect humanity and Deity. Both being unified in his experience. Yet, Deity can not be man. And, man can not be Deity. Just as the bush could not be Deity. Yet, God made his mind clearly known via utilizing that burning bush with Moses.

Now, via the humanity of Christ, God can not only make his thoughts known to man, but we can identify with the medium of expression. Moses could not identify with the burning bush. Jesus is forever a mediator between God and mankind...

Grace and peace, Gene

Philip · Apr 20, 2004

genez said:
You are confusing the humanity of Christ with the Deity of Christ. When the Lord spoke to Moses through the burning bush? Was God then a bush? I ask you, did God create that bush? Yes! And, the bush was not God! Yet, when the Lord communicated, it was Deity speaking by means of the bush as a point of contact with Moses!

Likewise, God created the humanity of Christ to be His dedicated vessel of humanity by which His Deity is to communicate (forever) to creation! Jesus has both perfect humanity and Deity. Both being unified in his experience. Yet, Deity can not be man. And, man can not be Deity. Just as the bush could not be Deity. Yet, God made his mind clearly known via utilizing that burning bush with Moses.

This analogy is very poor. God occupied the bush. God did not occupy Jesus. Jesus is God, not just a vessel through which God communicated.

Jesus did not CREATE himself

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