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Jesus' Beliefs About Scripture

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I have a question that (hopefully) we can discuss:

Is it possible to use the minimal facts method to support the idea that Jesus believed (scripture is inerrant, or scripture comes from God).

By mininal facts method I am referring to the method through which one takes facts accepted by the great majority of scholars, regardless of personal belief or religion.

As far as I know, the only data for such a method would be the Bible itself. (We have no other record of Jesus' words or deeds.)
 

Homie

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"We have no other record of Jesus' words or deeds"
- We don't? Are there no other written records about a man that people gathered around in the thousands, that was considered a threat to the stability of that region controlled by the Romans. A man that the Pharisees wanted rid out of the way. And a man that MANY people claimed did miracles.

Even if you don't look at it from a religious view, he was an importent historical figure and it would be strange if there was no other written records about him. Are you sure there aren't?
 
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kern

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There are not. Certain other historical sources mention Jesus briefly, but it's a point of debate among scholars whether these sources used the Gospels as their source or whether they heard about things independently.

Even so, *four* accounts of his life and teachings is absolutely amazing from a historical standpoint. Many historical figures (especially from that time period) are known only from a single source of which our oldest copies are from the Middle Ages. For Jesus we have four sources, the oldest copies of which are from the 2nd century (or even earlier).

-Chris
 
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Knight

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Funny, we just discussed this in my Bibliology class.

The question here is how did Jesus percieve the scriptures? We can find many references that tell us Jesus held the scriptures as final authority. They were infallable to Him. I'll post the references but I haven't time to post the entire verse. You'll just have to look them up yourself.

Matt. 4:4-7, 12:38-42, 5:17-19, 22:37-40
John 3:12, 17:17, 10:35, 12:49

The question of Biblical infallability almost always comes down to a circular argument:

"The bible is infallable because it says that it is."

I don't personally care for this argument because it appears to be too much of a cop-out. The Christological argument says:

"Jesus believed Scripture to be infallable. If He was who He said He was then he was correct because He was sinless. If He was not correct then he lied to us and therefore sinned. Hence His death was meaningless. Therefore, if we believe in Christ and who He was then we must accept the infallability of scripture because Jesus taught this."

This is a much better argument however it is not without it's weaknesses. The only resource we have for Jesus IS the Bible. Therfore the Bible is still validating itself.

I have my own opinions on how we can address this argument but I'd like to hear from others.

How can we validate a Christological argument for the infallability of Scripture without falling into the trap od circular reasoning?
 
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Matthew

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Funny, we just discussed this in my Bibliology class.

The question here is how did Jesus percieve the scriptures? We can find many references that tell us Jesus held the scriptures as final authority. They were infallable to Him. I'll post the references but I haven't time to post the entire verse. You'll just have to look them up yourself.

Thanks for the references.

The question of Biblical infallability almost always comes down to a circular argument:

"The bible is infallable because it says that it is."

Unfortunately, this is a fallacy (mistake in reasoning). That is why I was asking about Jesus' beliefs about the scriptures.

I don't personally care for this argument because it appears to be too much of a cop-out. The Christological argument says:

"Jesus believed Scripture to be infallable. If He was who He said He was then he was correct because He was sinless. If He was not correct then he lied to us and therefore sinned. Hence His death was meaningless. Therefore, if we believe in Christ and who He was then we must accept the infallability of scripture because Jesus taught this."

Or we could say that Jesus simply didn't know. (But I don't think that that will work.) I am not worried about this part of the argument right now. I am just looking at Jesus' beliefs.

This is a much better argument however it is not without it's weaknesses. The only resource we have for Jesus IS the Bible. Therfore the Bible is still validating itself.

That is why I proposed the "minimal facts method". Of those references that mention Jesus' scriptural beliefs, which ones do almost all scholars believe he actually did say.

I have my own opinions on how we can address this argument but I'd like to hear from others.

How can we validate a Christological argument for the infallability of Scripture without falling into the trap od circular reasoning?

That is my method (above). And it this method would work out like this:

1) The Bible says that "Jesus said that 'Scripture is x'".

2) Scholars believe that the Bible is correct in this instance.

3) Therefore, Jesus said that 'Scripture is x'

Furthermore, scholars' beliefs would be backed up by evidence. (As for "scholars" one could even include the Jesus Seminar, even though they are not scholars.)
 
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Knight

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That's a good way to do it. However, if I was a skeptic trying to tear you down I'd come up with my own scholars to conflict with yours.

Don't get me wrong. In many cases your argument will work. I'm just trying to see if we can get some innovative thinking going on.
 
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Matthew

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That's a good way to do it. However, if I was a skeptic trying to tear you down I'd come up with my own scholars to conflict with yours.

Maybe. But if my opponent wishes to engage in unreasonable thought, then what can I do? I would provide extra-Biblical evidence that would support that Jesus did say that (eg "the Church and Jews avoid this passage").

Don't get me wrong. In many cases your argument will work. I'm just trying to see if we can get some innovative thinking going on.

I'm open to any innovative arguments. I just can't think of any other than this one.
 
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Knight

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what about this:
The focal point of the Christological argument is the person of Christ Himself. If He was who He said He was then His teachings about the authority and infallability of scripture are true. The only problem is that the most comprehensive source about Him that we have is the Bible. Therefore the Bible is still authenticating itself. To most Christians this is not a problem but to the skeptic this can be a huge stumbling block. Here is an answer to this issue in my opinion.

The greatest testament to Christ's authority and validity is in His resurrection. This act validated that He was who He said He was and testified that the His death was sufficient for the sins of man. Plus, we are able to worship a living God rather than a dead one. Now the skeptic would ask, "We only know about the resurrection from the Bible so the Bible is still authenticating itself." This is true. However, let's take a look at the human authors of the four gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Four different men from four different backgrounds who wrote at four different times. All of them wrote these eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. There is little doubt that their lives were changed by this experience.

Let's look at when the books were written:
Matthew - 60's AD
Mark - Late 50's - Early 60's AD
Luke - 60 AD
John - Late 80's - Early 90's AD

It's apparent that the four gospels were written during the last half of the first century but still at different times. Each of these men wrote their testimony to the resurrection and never backed off from that claim even under dire circumstances. With the exception of John, all of these men were martyred for their beliefs. They testified to the resurrection of Christ to the point of a violent death.

Matthew - suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.
Mark - died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
Luke - was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.
John - faced martydom when he was boiled in huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos.The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
The greatest testimony to Christ and His resurrection is the testimony of changed lives. These four men are just an example of the suffering and pain that Christians have endured just for proclaiming the resurrection of Christ. One could argue that people have been willing to die for false causes in the past but this many, over the last 2000 years? It seems ridiculous to think that so many would die horrible deaths at the hands of others for the cause of a lie. The only thing that would have prevented the pain and death would have been to deny Christ and His resurrection. They did not
A good testament to someone's truthfullness has always been what they are willing to risk for the truth they are proclaiming. In a court of law a wittness risks perjury if they lie under oath. For the early Christians (and even some today) they risked their very lives for the truth of Christ's resurrection. Could someone endure all this over a lie? It seems doubtfull.
If we believe the eye wittenss accounts of Christ's resurrection then we are forced to believe that Jesus was who He said He was and that His words were accurate. Jesus believed that scripture was the very Word of God and therefore infallable. Taken in this context the Christological argument for the infallability of Scripture becomes much stronger and more relevant.
Of course, to someone who is determined to be a skeptic and doubts the testimony of the martyrs, this argument can still sound like the Bible affirming itself. Christians take on faith that the gospels are accurate based, in part, on the testimony of the early Christians. However, that faith is not without it's base in fact and reason as I hope to have shown here.
 
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