Jesus and the Trinity

[DjDan]

hey Balt;
I can see that. Makes sense about 3 witnesses. Incidently I have seen that scripture john 8:16-18 used to prove that god is a man. The witness of two men, god and Jesus.
Joh 8:17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

See god is a man and a spirit at the same time, kinda like doublemint gum. 2 gums in one. So God is a man and a spirit, and the other witness, Jesus is also a God and a man. Don't make sense? so what else is new? sorry I slipped into a little sarcasm here.

that explanation does sound a bit farfetched though.

 

[2ducklow]

that explanation does sound a bit farfetched though.

I wouldn't say so. the idea that one individual can be several different individuals is a hallmark of trinity. 3 persons (beings) are in or are {depending on who you talk to} one being (god). Jesus is both man and god. two beings that are one being. the man jesus and the god jesus and the word jesus are Jesus. the last one would be like a mini trinity within the trinity. So it isn't far fetched it is the result of what the trinity doctrine says. One can't list 100 individuals and call each one of them a god and say they are one god.No matter how many people says it is true, eveyone's brain will tell them that that can't be. Most people just ignore their brain telling them that 100 is not 1 or 3 is not 1. So it is not far fetched. the idea the many are one. it is in essence what trinity is.
Really when debating the issue it is somewhat similar to debating with someone over the meaning of a stop sign. I say the stop sign means stop they say it means many things, stop , god , slowdown. your brain will tell you that a stop sign does not mean go or slow down, but how do you prove the obvious.?

 

[4Pillars]

There is mention of the Son of God in the OT.

"Who hath ascended up into heaven or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists?, who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Proverbs 30:4. I believe the evidence is there if one looks hard enough..

Howdy Parnter;
it is a messianic prophecy, if it refers to Jesus , and does not prove a pre earth or pre-existant Christ. What you are saying in effect is there are 2 Jesuses. one who is the son of man and was born to mary, and the other who is the son of god and has always existed, (presumeably in some spirit form). I believe Jesus is one being who has 2 parents a Father and a Mother, like all humans. because Mary is human it makes Jesus the son of man. Because God is the Father of Jesus in that he created male seed to cause Mary to conceive, Jesus is the son of god. Jesus doesn't have a human Father, but he is 100 percent human becasue god created human male seed for Mary. there is no such thing as spiritual seed that God uses to procreate with humans or godesses. god doesn't have genitalia. God is a spirit not a man. And spirits don't procreate other spirits.
that's how I see it.

I would not spread that continued FALSE ASSUMPTION of yours, 2duclow. Perhaps, you missed reading about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, in the OT, who were all bound together to die into the midst of the burning fiery furnace - ordered by King Nebuchadnezzar -only to be saved by the Son of God, as documented in the Book of Daniel OT.

Here's the text for your additional learning reference, 2ducklow..

Daniel 3
23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


Notice, even King Nebuchadnezzar was aware and acknowledge the existense of the Son of God during the Old Testament - why not you, 2ducklow?

FYI - the Son of God is also referred to as the Messenge or Angel of the Lord in the OT- and had appeared in PHYSICAL FORM, on several occassion unto Abraaham, Isaac, Jacob and so many others as documented in the Scriptures.

 

[2ducklow]

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I would not spread that continued FALSE ASSUMPTION of yours, 2duclow.

It is an assumption backed up my a multitude of other OT scriptures that are messianic prophecys. so it is not an ungrounded assumption.

Perhaps, you missed reading about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, in the OT, who were all bound together to die into the midst of the burning fiery furnace - ordered by King Nebuchadnezzar -only to be saved by the Son of God, as documented in the Book of Daniel OT.

Here's the text for your additional learning reference, 2ducklow..

Daniel 3
23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Several things wrong with that
1. the hebrew word translated God is elohyim which is in this case most probabaly should be translated Gods and not god .
2. the definitie and indefinite articles (the and a or an) are not in the hebrew alphapet so their insertion depends on several thiongs, the theology of the translator, the context of the passage.
3. Nebuchadnezzar was a polythiest, and a non hebrew speaker, and most probably didn't say that in hebrew. He no doubt said it in chaldeeian and the hebrew word translated elohyim was no doubt for the chaldeeian word for gods. I doubt if the chaldeeian word for gods also has a singular sense and a plural sense depending upon the context as does the hebrew word elohyim.
4. Nebuchadnezzar wasn't stupid he knew that the hebrew god was Jahweh. He had daniel as his right hand man who was a worshiper of Jahweh. so if he intended to say 'the son of god' he would have used the hebrew god's name Jahweh. But nebuchadnezzar was speaking from his standpoint of there being many gods not just one.
Which is why probably that the YLT puts it this way.

Da 3:25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.

Notice, even King Nebuchadnezzar was aware and acknowledge the existense of the Son of God during the Old Testament - why not you, 2ducklow?

Why not me? Well, Because Nebuchadnezzar did not acknowledge the existense of the Son of God. How could he Jesus wasn't to be born for another 7 or 8 hundred years or so. That was an easy one.

FYI - the Son of God is also referred to as the Messenge or Angel of the Lord in the OT- and had appeared in PHYSICAL FORM, on several occassion unto Abraaham, Isaac, Jacob and so many others as documented in the Scriptures.

Well that obviously is not the case since the beginning of Jesus was his conception in Mary's womb.I notice you provided no scripture to back up that
assertion.
Lu 1:31and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus;
ARe you aware of the meaning of conception? do you know how fetuses come about? See what happens is a human male seed, in this case one that god created and not one that a man produced, fertilizes a female human egg, in this case Mary's egg. that's how Jesus got here on earth and that's how every human, except Adam and eve who were created, got here. The bible says Jesus was conceived so that's what I believe. perhaps you might take a biology class and get a better understanding of the word conceive. Or maybe you don't believe Jesus was literally conceived? perhaps you believe it is all figurative? I take it literal here.

 

[4Pillars]

It is an assumption backed up my a multitude of other OT scriptures that are messianic prophecys. so it is not an ungrounded assumption.

Several things wrong with that
1. the hebrew word translated God is elohyim which is in this case most probabaly should be translated Gods and not god .
2. the definitie and indefinite articles (the and a or an) are not in the hebrew alphapet so their insertion depends on several thiongs, the theology of the translator, the context of the passage.
3. Nebuchadnezzar was a polythiest, and a non hebrew speaker, and most probably didn't say that in hebrew. He no doubt said it in chaldeeian and the hebrew word translated elohyim was no doubt for the chaldeeian word for gods. I doubt if the chaldeeian word for gods also has a singular sense and a plural sense depending upon the context as does the hebrew word elohyim.
4. Nebuchadnezzar wasn't stupid he knew that the hebrew god was Jahweh. He had daniel as his right hand man who was a worshiper of Jahweh. so if he intended to say 'the son of god' he would have used the hebrew god's name Jahweh. But nebuchadnezzar was speaking from his standpoint of there being many gods not just one.
Which is why probably that the YLT puts it this way.

Da 3:25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods. ....

.....Why not me? Well, Because Nebuchadnezzar did not acknowledge the existense of the Son of God. How could he Jesus wasn't to be born for another 7 or 8 hundred years or so. That was an easy one.

LOL

Seemingly, whenever the texts do NOT suit your religious wild imagination, it's much easier for you to blame the bible translation or rendition in your vain attempt to justify your FALSE RELIGIOUS STAND, correct?

Here, try to correct or make your own translation of these texts, based on your own religious view.

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; (do you know him 2ducklow?) but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Notice, the Jews were also asking almost the same question that you still seem to be pondering today, even after reading the New Testament, am I correct 2ducklow?

Again, here 's what Jesus would answer to unbelievers like you who keep asking the same question.......

v58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus-John 8:54

You really don't know who your God is, 2ducklow, do you!?

Please pray for more wisdom and understanding.

God Bless

 

[2ducklow]

LOL

Seemingly, whenever the texts do NOT suit your religious wild imagination, it's much easier for you to blame the bible translation or rendition in your vain attempt to justify your FALSE RELIGIOUS STAND, correct?

I gave a very detailed analysis as to why I beliweve the YLT translations is to beprefered over the kjv. your response is to slander me.

Here, try to correct or make your own translation of these texts, based on your own religious view.

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; (do you know him 2ducklow?) but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Nice try at calling me a liar. And Yes I know the Father and the Son personally and have for 35 years.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham saw Jesus day. that is the time Jesus was on earth, by foresight. Abraham was not around when Jesus walked the earth. so he could only see Jesus day by foreshight, by faith. And Abraham was justified by faith.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Notice, the Jews were also asking almost the same question that you still seem to be pondering today, even after reading the New Testament, am I correct 2ducklow?

No you are not correct. The jews misunderstood what Jesus was saying as you have. The phrasees believed Jesus cast demons out by the power of satan.do you as well? Did it ever occur to you that many of the things the jews believed about jesus, such as the above statement, were incorrect?
You can put up little laugh icons all you want but it is you who are the one who evades every point I bring up.

Again, here 's what Jesus would answer to unbelievers like you who keep asking the same question.......

What question. you seem to be having some sort of imaginary conversation.

v58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus-John 8:54

if you take that verse literally it makes no sense. Before President washington, jahweh or I am. before casesar ,I am.
The understanding of a verse that makes no sense literally has to be figurative. your figurative understanding is that it means Jesus is the I am or Jahweh and as a result he existed before Abraham. which results in two gods you call one g od, which makes no sense. My understanding is that it means Jesus is the one prophesised about and who was in the mind of Jahweh even before Abraham. My interpertation makes sense and isnt' contradictory. you prefer the contadictory nonsensical interpetation, I choose the one that makes sense.

You really don't know who your God is, 2ducklow, do you!?

I Know that a christian is someone who believes that Jesus is the son of god, therefore, since you believe Jesus is the son of God, I believe that you are a christian. your doctrine that Jesus is God causes you to not know that I am a christian. this is one of the major detrimental things that happens to people when they believe that Jesus is God, they begin to not know what a christian is.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Joh 3:16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.YLT
I challenge you to show me a verse, any verse that says we are to believe Jesus is god to be saved. I believe it grieves the heart of god when his sons reject others who know him. I don't reject you as a brother in christ becaus you believe Jesus is the son of god, because you have been born agiain by the spirit of god. your false doctrines do not cause me to reject you as a brother in christ. but your false doctrine that Jesus is god causes you to reject me a believer in Jesus as the son of god.
Actually I am one of the small minority of christians who know exactly who god is and am not confussed about it.
Exodus 8:10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

which in the hebrew would be Jahweh our elohyim. There is none like Jahweh he alone is god. or amongst others
De 6:4`Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah;
No one can be confused about how many god's I have or who I believe is god.
Jehovah, or Yahweh alone is god none other. Jesus is not Jehovah or Yahweh. Yahweh is the Father of Jesus.

Please pray for more wisdom and understanding.

God Bless

and I would advise you to pray that god would help you to throw off tradition and seek the unadultrerated truth.

Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

IMO you hold the tradition of the church that 3 gods are one god which contradicts scripture that says there is only one god, and lay aside the commandement to have only one god.

Another major falicy of those who believe Jesus is god, is that they require others to believe it as well, as you have demonstrated by insinuating that I am not a christian., when the bible lays no such requirement anywhere for salvation. People who believe that Jesus is god begin to loose sight of what a christian is exactly. It is someone who believes Jesus is the son of god, not god. Actuallly believing Jesus is god contradicts scripture that says Jesus is hte son of god. NO one can be their own daddy. and if jesus is the son of god and god and there is only one god then that makes jesus his own daddy. you have no problem with multitudes of beliefs that result in such nonssensicalities as the above. I am carefull to interpet gods word to make sense out of what he says. God doesn't say nonsensical things. you don't seem to care in the least that your interpretations make no logical sense.

 

[4Pillars]

Dear 2ducklow,

Regretably, once again, your false assumption that I am rejecting you as a "christian brother" is a sign of paranoia and it is very serious. Perhaps, I would advise you to see a doctor soon.

Just so you know, contrary to your view, I was just correcting your flawed religious assumption and doctrinal ERRORS. Nothing personal.

Believe it or not, the Scriptures document us that the Son of God physically pre-existed even before the world was (John 17:1-5). His name is YHWH, the Son of the invisible God Father - whom you pretend to know the name. Then, YHWH, the Son became the messenger of God and was made flesh; sent into this world to save us from our sins.

The brightness of the glory of the Son of God provided the TRUE LIGHT in the beginning, during the Creatiuon (Gen. 1:3). He was brought forth into this world from the invisible realm of his Father. He was the "Word" (Light) in the beginning (Alpha) with God -- as He will also be the LIGHT thereof in the end (Omega) - New Jerusalem to come (Rev. 21:23).

If you still don't understand how the Son was brought forth into this world in the beginning, then ask, so you can be further educated of the truth.

I will only require you to stop listening to the wild imaginations of your ministers for the meantime - while we discuss the things you want to cover on this thread.

Again, disagreeing with your flawed religious view does not necessarily mean I am rejecting you as a "christian brother".

God Bless

 

[2ducklow]

Dear 2ducklow,

Regretably, once again, your false assumption that I am rejecting you as a "christian brother" is a sign of paranoia and it is very serious. Perhaps, I would advise you to see a doctor soon.

Your questions about whether I knew God or not implied taht you thought I wasn't a christian. you highlighted liar an obvious reference to me by you . you seem to be in denial here.
It is not paranoia, many christians who believe Jesus is god also believe that one is not saved unless they believe Jesus is god. contrary to scriptures.

Just so you know, contrary to your view, I was just correcting your flawed religious assumption and doctrinal ERRORS. Nothing personal.

actually your quotes had nothing to do with the subject.

Believe it or not, the Scriptures document us that the Son of God physically pre-existed even before the world was (John 17:1-5). His name is YHWH,

Jesus name is yahweh the savior. scriptures do not document the pre=existant christ, they document errronious translations of gods word.
'the world was created through him, not by him. you won't even consider that 'throuh' is the correct translation even though that is the main meaning of dia.

. the Son of the invisible God Father - whom you pretend to know the name.

I know his name the son's name is Jesus, or jahweh the savior joshua. Are you aware of what you are saying or are you just blasting away willy nilly?

Then, YHWH, the Son became the messenger of God and was made flesh; sent into this world to save us from our sins.

it is an interpretation that makes no sense. the preexistant son part. i agree Jesus was sent by god into the world, but so am I and so is every christian. the word was made flesh, word is personified, it means gods word or plan for man took onits greatest fullfillment with the birth of Jesus who is flesh and blood. my interpetation amkes sense, yours doesn't, your interpetation has gods word , the things god says being god and it turning into flesh, while at the same time not t urning into anything but remaining the same. with trinity or jesus is god people are freee to contradict themsleves willy nilly and think nothing of it.

The brightness of the glory of the Son of God provided the TRUE LIGHT in the beginning, during the Creatiuon (Gen. 1:3).[/quote
wrong the son wasnt till he was born. I proved it you ignored it. your main proof or counter to my claims seems to be ignore.

He was brought forth into this world fr om the invisible realm of his Father. He was the "Word" (Light) in the beginning (Alpha) with God -- as He will also be the LIGHT thereof in the end (Omega) - New Jerusalem to come (Rev. 21:23).

If you still don't understand how the Son was brought forth into this world in the beginning, then ask, so you can be further educated of the truth.

no thanks I hear enough nonsensical explanations of scriptures in here as it is.

I will only require you to stop listening to the wild imaginations of your ministers for the meantime - while we discuss the things you want to cover on this thread.

wild imaginations? my pastor makes sense out of scripture your teachers continualy make nonsense out of scritpure, i think you have the shoe on the wrong foot here.

Again, disagreeing with your flawed religious view does not necessarily mean I am rejecting you as a "christian brother".

God Bless

well you aren't to aware of what you say in your posts apparently and it is your view that is flawed not mine. care to discuss critpure or shall we continue with character assaination? it seems to be the only thing you're willing to do.. But then with a doctrine that makes absolutely no sense whatother defence is possible really. you guys doctrine is so nonsenseical and you have become so inured to belieiv ing nonsense that you can't even recognize it. it makes no sensse so what no biggie.

 

[2ducklow]

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Joh 3:16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.YLT
I challenge you to show me a verse, any verse that says we are to believe Jesus is god to be saved. I believe it grieves the heart of god when his sons reject others who know him. I don't reject you as a brother in christ becaus you believe Jesus is the son of god, because you have been born agiain by the spirit of god. your false doctrines do not cause me to reject you as a brother in christ. but your false doctrine that Jesus is god causes you to reject me a believer in Jesus as the son of god.
Actually I am one of the small minority of christians who know exactly who god is and am not confussed about it.
Exodus 8:10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

which in the hebrew would be Jahweh our elohyim. There is none like Jahweh he alone is god. or amongst others
De 6:4`Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah;
No one can be confused about how many god's I have or who I believe is god.
Jehovah, or Yahweh alone is god none other. Jesus is not Jehovah or Yahweh. Yahweh is the Father of Jesus

4pillars response = nothing..

 

[Harlin]

Hi 2ducklow,

Seemingly, whenever the texts do NOT suit your religious wild imagination, it's much easier for you to blame the bible translation or rendition in your vain attempt to justify your FALSE RELIGIOUS STAND, correct?

I too agree here with 4pillars, its seems that in every case that scripture proves contrary to your understanding the translation is apparantly flawed. What does one do? It seem even those who are educated in the Greek and Hebrew have conflicting ideas about what they actually say.

It seems to me that the further away from apostolic times we get, the more changes are made in the translations. One of the clearest attacks made in the new translations is on the deity of Christ, when reading the KJV there can be no doubt over this understanding, it is only from other translations that doubt is cast.

"and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" John 1:14

I'm sorry 2ducklow, it just doesn't get any clearer than that, there is no doubt that Jesus is the word of God, and the only begotten of the Father. And if Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, the "Son of God" He must be from God. He is not just a human, "the word was made flesh". He was already the Son of God, and then became the Son of man, not the other way around.

I know you say it "Smacks of reincarnation" to you, but reincarnation is definitely different to incarnation.

Well that obviously is not the case since the beginning of Jesus was his conception in Mary's womb.I notice you provided no scripture to back up that
assertion.
Lu 1:31and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus;
ARe you aware of the meaning of conception? do you know how fetuses come about? See what happens is a human male seed, in this case one that god created and not one that a man produced, fertilizes a female human egg, in this case Mary's egg. that's how Jesus got here on earth and that's how every human, except Adam and eve who were created, got here. The bible says Jesus was conceived so that's what I believe. perhaps you might take a biology class and get a better understanding of the word conceive. Or maybe you don't believe Jesus was literally conceived? perhaps you believe it is all figurative? I take it literal here.

Literal???, are you suggesting this is a literal human conception or that Jesus was literally conceived of the holy spirit?. The Bible says that Mary was conceived of the holy spirit, not by the strange description you gave. A male seed was used, Jesus was of the seed of David, but He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. God is His Father. We don't need a biology class here to work out conception the human way, because this was not the natural human way to conceive. Have you ever heard of any other woman conceiving in that manner?....NO, it is completely unique to Mary. Jesus is the Son of God, there is no way around it, only by twisting scripture can you rob Jesus of His rightful deity. Why is His name Emmanuel (God with us), or is that an incorrect translation too? Or maybe that reference to Jesus as being God is just a common noun and can be used to identify just about anybody?. I just don't buy it.

Please don't take this personally 2ducklow, but in my opinion Jesus doesn't seem to be held very highly by your church. I just don't understand how anybody could refuse Jesus worship and praise after all He has willfully done for us, and yet we don't deserve one litte bit of that grace.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Do you take this to be literal 2ducklow?, I hope you do, but according to your beliefs, I don't see how you can.

In Jesus,

Harlin

 

[2ducklow]

Hi 2ducklow,



I too agree here with 4pillars, its seems that in every case that scripture proves contrary to your understanding the translation is apparantly flawed. What does one do? It seem even those who are educated in the Greek and Hebrew have conflicting ideas about what they actually say.

All too often scripture that is used to prove trinity or that Jesus is God has been tampered with or translated wrongly. All one can do, when there are conflicting translations of verses is to examine the evidence and decide for oneself which translation is the most correct. That is what I do. My experience here in CF is that you guys don't want to hear about alternate translations. you guys don't want to know that any translation that proves trinity or that Jesus is god could possibly be incorrect. I gave quite extensive explanations why I belieived the YLT translation was correct and the KJV translation was incorrect in daniel 3:25. I got no response. you guys don't want to hear it.

It seems to me that the further away from apostolic times we get, the more changes are made in the translations. One of the clearest attacks made in the new translations is on the deity of Christ, when reading the KJV there can be no doubt over this understanding, it is only from other translations that doubt is cast.

Well then if oldest is best , which genreally it is, then you should trust the newer translations than the kjv for they are based on older manuscritps than the KJV scholars had available, such as aleph, A. B.C.
many more reliable manuscripts have come to light since the time of the kjv. They conflict many times with the kjv. such as 1` john 5:7.
The kjv is not a very literal translation and at times they play fast and easy with the scriptures for the sake of eloquence. they even say so in their prologue. The kjv is not a very good translation.

"and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" John 1:14

I'm sorry 2ducklow, it just doesn't get any clearer than that, there is no doubt that Jesus is the word of God, and the only begotten of the Father. And if Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, the "Son of God" He must be from God. He is not just a human, "the word was made flesh". He was already the Son of God, and then became the Son of man, not the other way around.

yes there is . And I explained it you just ignored it like everyone else does.I offered an explaintion that is perfectly logical , fits with scirpture and you gusy ignore it for the illogical contradictory nonsenseical explanations.
the word logos is being personified. Gods' word did not literaly turn into to a clump of flesh sans blood and bone and human spirit and human soul. The word of god took on a fleshly form in the man christ Jesus because Jesus spoke what his father , who is the only true god, gave him to speak. Jesus spoke the word of god. thereby the word became flesh. in a figurative sense. you guys pooo pooo any figurative interpetation of this verse, but even you don't take it comepletely literally. you believe the word became jesus but it says the word became flesh. so you are taking flesh in a figurative sensee to represent Jesus. and of course you don't take luke 1:23 literally either, 'that which was concieved in her was of the holy spirit" Jesus was conceived which means a male human seed, which god created, fertillized Mary's egg. If Mary's egg was not fertillized then Mary is not the literal mother of Jesus. she would be like an incubator of Jesus only, called a surogate mother. it takes human male seed to do that , monkey seed or anyother seed but that will not fertilize a HUman female egg. I take it literally, you take it to mean god changed into a 2 celll embrio and swoooped down and depoited himself in Marys womb. which is ridiculous. And to make even further ridiculous you say god remained the same when he changed. which is a contradiction. you guys poo poo any figurative interpertaion of this john 1:14 verse but you yourselfs, as does everyone, have figurative interpretations of many versese, as I have just shown

I know you say it "Smacks of reincarnation" to you, but reincarnation is definitely different to incarnation.

I find it degrading to god to claim he turned himself into a mere man. god is omnipotent,and omnipresent. man is much more lowly than that.

Literal???, are you suggesting this is a literal human conception or that Jesus was literally conceived of the holy spirit?. The Bible says that Mary was conceived of the holy spirit, not by the strange description you gave.

And what pray telll is so strange about the description? I see you don't care to say how it is strange . you just condemn it as strange without any explanation. Is it strange that God could and would create a human male seed to fertilize Mary's egg with? Tell me what is strange about that. Scripture teaches it.

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

the LORD, or Yahweh created a human male seed thus enabling Mary to conceive and bypass or go around or compass a man to become fertile. And Jesus is the first-born of this this new thing god created and one day the only creation (human creation that is, Jesus is human creation not rock or earth or animal creation) that there will be will be this new creation of god. we are new creations in christJesus and one day that will be the only human creation there will be and Jesus will be the first-born of all creation (HUman) at that time. the old man is dieing and one day the first adam or old man of sin will be completely dead, when we all get our new bods.

male seed was used, Jesus was of the seed of David, but He was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

You aren't making any sense here. whose maleseed was used? David's? the holy spirit's?

His Father. We don't need a biology class here to work out conception the human way, because this was not the natural human way to conceive.

if it wasn't then you need to explain how she conceived. How did Mary's egg become fertile?

Have you ever heard of any other woman conceiving in that manner?....NO,

No other woman has ever conceived by anyone other than a man. but the act of conception is the same. a human male seed is absolutely necesssary to fertilize a human female egg. you have no trouble saying god changed into a fetus in marys womb, but to you it is extremely stupid that god would create a human male seed to cause mary to conceive. my explanation is perfectly logical and makes sense. your explanation that god morphed into a 2 cell embrio is nonsensical to say the least.

it is completely unique to Mary. Jesus is the Son of God, there is no way around it, only by twisting scripture can you rob Jesus of His rightful deity. Why is His name Emmanuel (God with us), or is that an incorrect translation too? Or maybe that reference to Jesus as being God is just a common noun and can be used to identify just about anybody?. I just don't buy it.

so many flaws in these statements. for one Jesus name is not emmanuel. Jesus name is Jesus. Jesus name, which is Jesus , shall be called emmanuel because emmanuel means god with us. Jesus brought god to man because god was in christ reconciling the world unto himself. Jesus only spoke wwhat his father gave him to speak. Jesus could do nothing everything that he did he did by the power of god who indwelt him. the scirpture is extremely clear on this issue that god was in christ. so why do you contradict scripture by claiming that god is christ. Not only does it directly contradict clear plain scripture but it is nonsensical to say christ is god. christ means the annointed one. no one annoints god, god does the annointing.

Please don't take this personally 2ducklow, but in my opinion Jesus doesn't seem to be held very highly by your church. I just don't understand how anybody could refuse Jesus worship and praise after all He has willfully done for us, and yet we don't deserve one litte bit of that grace.

actually those who believe Jesus is god do not fully understand the sacrifice that JEsus made for us. the penalty for sin is death, the second death, not the first death.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

everyone dies whether they are christian or not. but only christians avoid the second death, because Jesus , a man agreed to go to hell for our sakes. and burn forever and ever in our place. once you realize what Jesus actually did for you it becomes really apparent that we owe him our everything. That's why he was sweating blood in the g arden because he was having to make this decision, and alone at that, no one was praying with him .

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Do you take this to be literal 2ducklow?, I hope you do, but according to your beliefs, I don't see how you can.

In Jesus,

Harlin

you are making no sense here harlin. Are you aware that that verse says nothing about Jesus being God? It says Jesus is the son of God, read it again.
I have always calimed Jesus is the son of g od. this verse says nothing in no shape or form that Jesus is god. and yes I believe Jesus is the literal son of god, unfortunately you do not . you think god turned himself into a fetus. that doesn't make jesus the son of god , it makes god a controtionist.

 

[4Pillars]

Dear Readers,

Jesus is the Light of the 1st Day. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

In the Garden of Gethsemane, just before His Crucification, Jesus prays to the Father:

And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5

Glory is Brightness, a Physical trait. Jesus is speaking of His Physical Brightness which He shared with the Father, Before the world was. Before the world was can only be the 1st Day, since the first World was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8

Jesus is the Physical Image of the Invisible Spirit of God.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15

He came forth into the Physical World, from the invisible realm of the Father, on the 1st Day. Jesus is the Light of the 1st Day (Alpha), the Light of the first 3 Days, since the Sun was not made until the 4th Day.

Jesus is also the Light of Heaven in the end (Omega):

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Rev 21:23

Jesus/YHWH, the Son, is also God and to be worshipped accordingly - though Lord in the beginning.

HEBREWS 1

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God WORSHIP him.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

v9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Jesus is Lord YHWH himself in the OT, the Son of the Invisible Almighty God!!!!

 

[4Pillars]

Dear Readers,

Like so many others, to assume and pretend to know the name of the invisible Almighty God Father is an IGNORAMUS of the Truth of the Scripture...

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Also, the Scripture clearly documents and suggest that NO MAN knew the name of the invisible Almighty God Father even to this date - except the only begotten Son - unless we overcometh in the end as promised.

Revelation 3
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 19
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Conclusion:
Jesus is YHWH himself - the Son of the unknown invisible God Father.


Ephesiens 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED,....

 

[Odsolo]

“It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.” “It doesn’t make sense.” “It makes no sense.” “It’s nonsensical.” It doesn’t make any sense.”

And that is the beginning, middle and end of your entire argument.

 

[2ducklow]

WEll I decided to respond to this post even though I know 4pillars will ignore everything I say.

Dear Readers,

Jesus is the Light of the 1st Day. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

I believe God gave Jesus the words to speak "I am the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;ASV

This verse shows that it was god speaking in Jesus when he said "I am the alpha and the omega"

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

this verse shows that Jesus was notsspeaking of his ownself when he said
"I am the alpha and the omega" IT shows that Jesus was speaking of his father.
God spoke in Jesus the same way he did in prophets of old.

In the Garden of Gethsemane, just before His Crucification, Jesus prays to the Father:

And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5

Jesus already had that glory when he asked to recieve it.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus already had the glory of God's own self. god was in christ. all the fullness of the god essence was in christ. he didn't need to ask for it he already had it. Jesus was speaking as a stand in for us who lost the glory of God's own self when Adam sinned. Jesus was asking for it to be resorted. which god did at the day of pentecost. the proof is that this glory Jesus ask for he gave to us. which is the same glory he already had, the abiding presensce of God's own self.
Besides this same glory that Jesus has he has given to us. we have the same glory that Jesus has.
Jesus is glorified with God's own self, We are glorified with God's own self. same thing.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

Glory is Brightness, a Physical trait. Jesus is speaking of His Physical Brightness which He shared with the Father, Before the world was. Before the world was can only be the 1st Day, since the first World was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8

Wrong, the glory that Jesus gave us and he has is god's own self. john 17:5 states what the glory is. As I showed above.

Jesus is the Physical Image of the Invisible Spirit of God.

It is not Jesus body that is the image of the invisible god, but rather god in christ manifesting outward that produces the image of god , just as christ in us manifesting outward produces the image of christ to others.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15

actually the correct translation is firstborn of all creation. which is of course all human creation. one day only the new creation of god (human creation that is) will be the onlly creation there will be. we are new creations in christ Jesus who is the firstborn of all creation. the old creation adam is dieing and one day will be completely dead and g one forever.

He came forth into the Physical World, from the invisible realm of the Father, on the 1st Day. Jesus is the Light of the 1st Day (Alpha), the Light of the first 3 Days, since the Sun was not made until the 4th Day.

I came forth into the physcial world as well when I was born.

Jesus is also the Light of Heaven in the end (Omega):

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Rev 21:23

Again another bad translation. the correct translation proves that Jesus is not the light.

Revelation 21:23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.

god is the light and Jesus is the lamp that light shines through. the greek word translated lamp is.

[size=+1]luvcnoß [/size]Luchnos (lookh'-nos);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 3088

1. a lamp, candle, that is placed on a stand or candlestick

The word translated light in john 8:12 is

[size=+1]fw'ß [/size]Phos (foce);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 5457

1. light
   1. the light
      1. emitted by a lamp
      2. a heavenly light such as surrounds angels when they appear on earth
   2. anything emitting light
      
      1. a star
      2. fire because it is light and sheds light
      3. a lamp or torch
   3. light, i.e brightness

Joh 8:12Again, therefore, Jesus spake to them, saying, `I am the light of the world; he who is following me shall not walk in the darkness, but he shall have the light of the life.`









Jesus is the light because he is t he lamp that the light of god shines through.

Jesus/YHWH, the Son, is also God and to be worshipped accordingly - though Lord in the beginning.

Makes no sense. there is only one god not 2 gods that are one god. god the father is the only god there is and Jesus isn't his own daddy , no one is.
Your statement that 'the son, is also god condmens you as a polythiest. also means and which means you have one god and or also another god. god the father and or also Jesus.

HEBREWS 1

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God WORSHIP him.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

v9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Jesus is Lord YHWH himself in the OT, the Son of the Invisible Almighty God!!!!

the subject of elohyim meaning sometimes god and sometimes judges, men and satan comes up which no one who believes Jesus is god will admidt to. saying someone is elohyim doesn't make him god. elohyim doesn't translate exactly as our word god.
that was easy.
The statement

 

[hybrid]

Hi 2dl

everyone dies whether they are christian or not. but only christians avoid the second death,

because Jesus , a man agreed to go to hell for our sakes. and burn forever and ever in our place. (emphasis mine)once you realize what Jesus actually did for you it becomes really apparent that we owe him our everything. That's why he was sweating blood in the g arden because he was having to make this decision, and alone at that, no one was praying with him .

I’m happy just to lurk by, kinda busy tweaking things these days, but I cannot help to comment in this statement of yours. It’s seems to be new and rather odd to me…

Do you mean to say you believe Jesus is in hell burning now?


.

 

[2ducklow]

Hi 2dl



I’m happy just to lurk by, kinda busy tweaking things these days, but I cannot help to comment in this statement of yours. It’s seems to be new and rather odd to me…

Do you mean to say you believe Jesus is in hell burning now?

I’m not in the mood to start a discussion about this, just curious how you arrived to such conclusion.

hello Hybrid;
No, Jesus agreed to go to hell and burn for ever in our place because God asked him to. God considered the agreement good enough.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

God did not allow Jesus to see corruption or burning in hell. hence Jesus agreement to do so was good enough
So God did not send Jesus to hell to burn forever. God asked him to because that is the penalty for sin, physical death is not the penalty for sin, being cast into the lake of fire and burning in hell forever and ever is the penalty. If physical death were the penalty for sin then eveyone who dies would have paid the penalty for sin for his ownself.
Our debt of sin is paid by Jesus not becaue he died physically, but because he agreed to take our place in hell. Of course one has to die phsically first before one is cast into hell, assuming one rejects the free gift Jesus offers.
how I arrived at such a conclustion, 1.. our church taught it to me, 2. it makes sense ,.
3. it explains why jesus was sweating blood and wanting desperately to not die for our sins, "if there be any other way let this cup pass from me." said Jesus.
It is true that Jesus knew that he would be resurected on the third day, but in the garden and on the cross, this knowledge was taken away from him so that he could make the choice to die for our sins, and burn in hell. if Christ knew in the garden that he would be resurecceted on the third day, then he couldn't have made the choice. So God took the knowledge that Jesus would be resurected on the 3rd day away from Jesus so he could make that decision and take our place.
See, Jesus was being stressed out with this horrible decission as any oone would be. IN stressfull situations we don'tremember everything God said , doubts creep in, and the devil tempts us in those times to disobey God or not trust him.
Look at john the babptist, in prision he started doubting that Jesus was the messiah, yet by the power of gods spirit he said earlier , when he was out of prisiion,

.John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Believing Jesus is God robs people of understanding the fullness of what the man christ Jesus actually did for each of us. once you realize that Jesus agreed to take your place in hell and burn forever in your place because God asked him to, you have a whole different appreactiation of what jesus did for you.
We really owe him our everything. he really bought us. I mean really.

 

[gort]

2ducklow,

You have no Scripture that states anything regarding Christ being robbed of remembrance of what you post above. None. Zip. Nada, Nichto.

You have no Scripture that says Christ was going to burn forever. None whatsoever.

You have no Scripture that says "G-d considered the agreement good enough".


<><

 

[Harlin]

Hi 2ducklow,

Believing Jesus is God robs people of understanding the fullness of what the man christ Jesus actually did for each of us. once you realize that Jesus agreed to take your place in hell and burn forever in your place because God asked him to, you have a whole different appreactiation of what jesus did for you.
We really owe him our everything. he really bought us. I mean really.

Well I disagree here with what you are saying. No, only if you believe that Jesus is the one true God does this rob people of the understanding of what He did for us. Believing that Jesus was just a man robs people of the understanding of what the one tue God actually gave up for fallen humanity.......His own Son......"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. That is what scripture says, that is what I believe. I know many dispute the word begotten and what it actually means and so on, well I don't buy it, they don't agree most of the time either.

I too believe that Jesus died the second death for us, but, I believe that the second death is not burning in hell eternally but that it is the eternal death for the wicked. (perhaps suitable for discussion on another thread) Jesus at the cross paid the price for fallen humanity, which was the second death, but because He had no sin of His own death had no power over Hm. The Father could raise Him.

God Bless Harlin

 

[2ducklow]

2ducklow,

You have no Scripture that states anything regarding Christ being robbed of remembrance of what you post above. None. Zip. Nada, Nichto.

You have no Scripture that says Christ was going to burn forever. None whatsoever.

You have no Scripture that says "G-d considered the agreement good enough".


<><

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
This verse shows god considered Jesus decision to go to hell in our place good enough.

I showed you scripture where john the baptist had the knowledge that Jesus was the messiah taken away from him, there are other scirptures. there i s a theological word for it that escapes my memory at present.


You have no scripture stating god is a trinity, yet you believe that.