Jesus a borrowed idea of Krishna?

[Asmodeious]

Its a well known fact that religions often borrow of one another through out time, and so I've been wondering if the story of Jesus coming to show the people the way then dying for them after coming down from heaven is borrowed from the Hindu story of Krishna who is the incarnation Vishnu, one of the three major gods, was sent by Bramha, the god of creation, to show the people the way to nirvana after they had developed a materialistic society.

As you can see this story greatly parrallels that of Jesus. A diety coming down in human form to show people the way to salvation (nirvana for the Hindus), sent by an even bigger god to live and die as a human.

And because Hinduism's written record is significantly older than that of Christianity's and even Judism's it leads me to wonder if the story of Jesus was borrowed off of that of Krishna's.

 

[heron]

I don't think I would die just to steal something from another religion. (-;

It's an interesting parallel -- definitely speaks of something that appeals universally -- laying down your life for people you love.

Borrowing is only one aspect of why religions have overlaps.

Another possibility is shared knowledge of actual events. Whether people went through it themselves or heard it from traders and travelers, there are likely to be stories that coincide. And example would be the flood, the creation, and the tower of Babel.

There is the commonality of certain ethics and wisdom. People learn from experience that treating others well creates a better community to live in. So some of these values will stretch across religions that appear to be in conflict. I have heard that Muslims complain the Christians are so corrupt. They are very disciplined, and it merges into their culture more than Christianity merges in (believe it or not).

God can reach people anywhere, appear in dreams and visions and voices, and through other believers. He is not limited to working in the lives of believers. I have heard stories of remote unvisited populations who had angel visitations before missionaries arrived. They knew a little bit about the gospel, with no outside contact.

About your question specifically, though -- there were some key differences. Prophesies about the coming Messiah ran through much of the Old Testament. The Jews were looking for this person to appear. They expected someone more glamorous and strong -- not humble and hanging out with the common man. But they did know that "by his stripes we are healed" long before Jesus appeared.

Of course we can't presume to know everything that happened thousands of years ago. But God is bigger than the book, and He cares for people in many unexpected ways.

 

[Nadiine]

How could Christ be associated w/ Krishna?

Jesus claimed to be God, and the ONE AND ONLY way to eternal life. He also taught about hell.

I don't think so. Jesus was not inclusive w/ other religions whatsoever.

 

[heron]

From what I understand, Krishna's death was also predicted beforehand, but his family did everything they could to keep him from dying. The death was feared, rather than looked upon as a voluntary act.

Krishna was expected to die as a victim of evil men. Jesus died at the decision of a court and religious system that He held respect for and operated within.

The purpose of Jesus' death -- since we are unable to get it right when it comes to obedience, God made a way for us to be cleansed of past sins, and move on in His strength and favor. Jesus naturally expressed discomfort about facing death, but told people not to stop the process.

Jesus and Krishna had similar personalities -- willing to devote their entire lives for a higher purpose. Because of this, they fought for justice and took risks to protect people. Look up Myers-Briggs (personality) Type Indicators some time... how people share different tendencies in personality.

 

[HypnoToad]

You'll also find that many "similarities" that are mentioned are either completely made up (were never part of the Krishna accounts), or that they only appear in documents post-dating Christianity - indicating the similarities result from Krishna copying Christ, not the other way around.

http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusKrishna.html
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm

 

[ebia]

Its a well known fact that religions often borrow of one another through out time, and so I've been wondering if the story of Jesus coming to show the people the way then dying for them after coming down from heaven is borrowed from the Hindu story of Krishna who is the incarnation Vishnu, one of the three major gods, was sent by Bramha, the god of creation, to show the people the way to nirvana after they had developed a materialistic society.

As you can see this story greatly parrallels that of Jesus. A diety coming down in human form to show people the way to salvation (nirvana for the Hindus), sent by an even bigger god to live and die as a human.

And because Hinduism's written record is significantly older than that of Christianity's and even Judism's it leads me to wonder if the story of Jesus was borrowed off of that of Krishna's.

There are some very superficial similarities, but there are enough religions in the world that you could find that level of superficial similarity somewhere to any story.

What you can see is how the story of Jesus completes the OT. It's inconcievable that a pagan story was borrowed and then made to fit that yet in startling different ways to either the Jewish expectation or any pagan idea of resurrection, let alone that it would be done within the lifetime of those who were there for whatever actually happened.

The early church and its writings are all heavily centred around their concept of bodily, physical, resurrection, which has been demonstrated in Christ and is then expected for themselves in the future. That's what you would have to match to begin to show 'borrowing'.

 

[ScottUnitarian]

How could Christ be associated w/ Krishna?

Jesus claimed to be God, and the ONE AND ONLY way to eternal life. He also taught about hell.

I don't think so. Jesus was not inclusive w/ other religions whatsoever.

I disagree that Jesus claimed to be God. I think some things he said were poorly understood and that Jesus' nature was "paganized" by Gentiles.

God doesn't talk to himself. At least, I doubt he talks to himself.

 

[heron]

I disagree that Jesus claimed to be God. I think some things he said were poorly understood and that Jesus' nature was "paganized" by Gentiles.

God doesn't talk to himself. At least, I doubt he talks to himself.

Jesus' diety is the core premise of Christianity. If one is to talk about a given faith, they need to use the documents respected by longstanding scholars of that faith.

It might not make sense, and you might not agree with it, but the God incarnate balance is completely consistent with what Jesus said and His followers believed.


John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 19:7
The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."

Ga 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

1Jo 5:10
The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

Passages less clear...

---

john 13:33
Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus *said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him;

if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately.

"Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, 'Where I am going, you cannot * come.'


Luke 23:35
Ga 1:4
2Co 5:18,19
1Thess 4:16

1Co 15:28
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Mt 4:3-6
And the tempter came and said to Him [Jesus], "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."

Mt 8:29
And they [demons] cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Mt 16:16
He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Sonof the living God."
And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Heb 9:14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Mt 1:23
"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

(Sorry about the caps -- it was a paste.)

 

[ebia]

I disagree that Jesus claimed to be God. I think some things he said were poorly understood and that Jesus' nature was "paganized" by Gentiles.

The trouble with that is that none of it looks paganized. While it clearly takes Jewish thinking into new terratory, the roots of it are all in Jewish thinking if you go lookign for it, and firmly anti-pagan.

God doesn't talk to himself. At least, I doubt he talks to himself.

He would if he were more than one person.

 

[tapero]

I disagree that Jesus claimed to be God. I think some things he said were poorly understood and that Jesus' nature was "paganized" by Gentiles.

God doesn't talk to himself. At least, I doubt he talks to himself.

I talk to myself, so since made in Gods image, imagine God does same, don't see why not. No one else better to talk with at times. hehe

Jesus is surely God.

 

[ScottUnitarian]

If one is to talk about a given faith, they need to use the documents respected by longstanding scholars of that faith.

Well, that's not presumptuous, is it?

I think the entire list belongs under your "passages less clear" section.

If Jesus were God he would have clearly, undeniably, explicitly, unmistakenly stated: I AM GOD. God wouldn't have left space for doubt if it were so important, and there's enough space there to drive a truck through.

He and his Father are one, but one in what way?

He was before Abraham, but not before Adam? What did he really mean?

If I say "Jesus, Joseph and Mary!" does that mean I believe they're three facets of the same person? It wouldn't mean that if I saw a dead man walking and said "My Lord and my God!" either.

Trinitarianism (why it has to be three instead of two is a little ridiculous as well and should tell you something) is just one interpretation of Jesus' nature, a nature which is ultimately a mystery, and there's not even any clear, undebatable scriptural support that the Apostles and other early disciples believed this, outside of Paul in a few places. Jesus taught in parables and his meaning is intentionally obscured for those without ears.

Also, if the early Christians had intended to go the route of polytheism, the Council of Nicea wouldn't have been necessary at all - there was a serious disagreement among Christians about Jesus' nature. The prevalence of trinitarianism is just one more way in which Jesus' teachings were Hellenized.

The Greatest Commandment has nothing to do with believing Jesus is God and Jesus never asked us to do so. Jesus is my Brother, King, Teacher and Friend, but he is not my Father - Jesus provides us with the Holy Spirit, and judges us at the Resurrection, but God our Father forgives our sins.

 

[salida]

No, Jesus isn't a borrowed idea anymore than the sun and moon existing but He is the true and living God. I strongly suggest that you read the Evidence that Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell - its facts about the bible that would stand up in court. Below I will mention facts about the bible in a nutshell. Because of its characteristics only God could have written it through the Holy Spirit using unperfect men.

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[heron]

I think the entire list belongs under your "passages less clear" section.

If Jesus were God he would have clearly, undeniably, explicitly, unmistakenly stated: I AM GOD. God wouldn't have left space for doubt if it were so important, and there's enough space there to drive a truck through.

Would that make it any more true? Would it have led more people to believe it to be true?

Already, an estimated 33% of the world's population*believes that Jesus conveyed he was the Son of God, one with the Father. Whether it's true or not, is something each person has to delve into and decide for themselves.

Isn't that a main tenet of Unitarianism -- respecting the beliefs of others, while exploring faith for yourself?

* https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html#People

 

[ScottUnitarian]

Would that make it any more true? Would it have led more people to believe it to be true?

Obviously, yes.

Already, an estimated 33% of the world's population*believes that Jesus conveyed he was the Son of God, one with the Father.

I don't quite catch your point. Are you appealing to peer pressure? No one should believe something just because X% of the world's population believes it.

The vast majority of Christians call their ministers "Father", even if Jesus forbade that. Does that mean we should follow likewise?

Whether it's true or not, is something each person has to delve into and decide for themselves.

Really? But shouldn't we agree with X% of the world's population instead?

And isn't it better, when one is making a decision, that they are taught in a clear manner what others believe and why?

And if one is in a public forum which, I assume, exists for the exchange, exploration and even criticism of ideas and beliefs, should some be quiet because they hold the minority opinion?

Isn't that a main tenet of Unitarianism -- respecting the beliefs of others, while exploring faith for yourself?

No.

As a Unitarian Christian (not a Unitarian Universalist), all of the main tenets of my religion are based in the Gospels and Epistles, and I should love those with whom I disagree, but I don't need to respect their beliefs which seem erroneous to me. On the contrary, when someone states that they believe Jesus is God, I have a duty to dissent, although it should always be in a polite way. If a person supported the death penalty or anything else against the Gospel, I would have that duty too.

 

[heron]

And isn't it better, when one is making a decision, that they are taught in a clear manner what others believe and why?

Of course.

Look over some parts of the gospels:



Mt 4:3-6
And the tempter came and said to Him [Jesus], "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."

1. The devil said to Jesus that he was the son of God. Evidently Jesus told his disciples this story of being alone with the devil, or it would not have ended up written by them. How would he have conveyed this story?

2. The demons shouted out that Jesus was the son of God. Jesus didn't say it, but the public heard it from a supernatural (admittedly deceptive) source.

3. The Jews tried to stop him because he claimed to be the Son of God, shown in the verses above. This is not absolute proof that Jesus said it, but second-hand documentation (third). We have similar historical record of statements by philosophers and politicians, which scholars acknowldge as likely ture.

All of recorded history is a set of statements which risk bias and corruption... and rewriting.

4. Some of Jesus' statements:

Joh 7:28
Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, "You indeed know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know .

ekracen oun en tw ierw didaskwn (5723) o Ihsouv kai legwn, (5723) Kame oidate (5758) kai oidate (5758) poqen eimi; (5748) kai ap'emautou ouk elhluqa, (5754) all' estin (5748) alhqinov o pemyav (5660) me, on umeiv ouk oidate; (5758)
​

The word "Christ" had different meanings, and I think the definitions are still subjective, possibly taking on the assumptions you refer to.

Xriston, Ihsoun.

Luke 2:26
And it had been revealed to [Simeon] him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

48 "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You." And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?" But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.
​

--As you say, Father can be used other ways. But notice that Jesus' use of the term was what got the Jewish leaders upset. They were also upset that Jesus claimed to have authority to forgive sins.

This was the mystery -- the decision that each believer had to make.

John 2
16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

His disciples remembered that it was written, "ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME." The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

But He was speaking of the temple of His body. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
​

--Think about the event of resurrection -- how would you explain that, within the context of assuming the Bible is the Word of God?

Jesus' court case was about this same claim, being the Son of God. Jesus did not deny it, when he knew it meant conviction and death.

John 19:7The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]Himself out to be the Son of God."​

 

[ScottUnitarian]

Look over some parts of the gospels:

I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

What does that have to do with the price of apples?

 

[HypnoToad]

This is not a debate forum, people.

 

[Nadiine]

By the by, I wandered into the Fundamentalist Christian section this morning and alot of these same threads are in their debate area too.

 

[plmarquette]

Its a well known fact that religions often borrow of one another through out time, and so I've been wondering if the story of Jesus coming to show the people the way then dying for them after coming down from heaven is borrowed from the Hindu story of Krishna who is the incarnation Vishnu, one of the three major gods, was sent by Bramha, the god of creation, to show the people the way to nirvana after they had developed a materialistic society.

As you can see this story greatly parrallels that of Jesus. A diety coming down in human form to show people the way to salvation (nirvana for the Hindus), sent by an even bigger god to live and die as a human.

And because Hinduism's written record is significantly older than that of Christianity's and even Judism's it leads me to wonder if the story of Jesus was borrowed off of that of Krishna's.

who was on the scene first ?
abraham met God before buddha set under the tree , before confucious , before krishna , before .... reverse the assertion ...might be close ...

each great religion has a statement of ethics and morality, which are similar in many religions , though the tenants of the faith , are no way close ...

buddhasism has no heaven , no hell , no salvation , hundreds of gods and demigods... different facets and sects , none of which are similar to the jewish, moslem, or christian sects ...

hinduism and buddhaism are more similar to moonies, scientology, harechrisna's for they are spin offs of basic indian eastern philosophy not christianity

 

[tapero]

[/color]Well, that's not presumptuous, is it?

I think the entire list belongs under your "passages less clear" section.

If Jesus were God he would have clearly, undeniably, explicitly, unmistakenly stated: I AM GOD. God wouldn't have left space for doubt if it were so important, and there's enough space there to drive a truck through.

He and his Father are one, but one in what way?

He was before Abraham, but not before Adam? What did he really mean?

If I say "Jesus, Joseph and Mary!" does that mean I believe they're three facets of the same person? It wouldn't mean that if I saw a dead man walking and said "My Lord and my God!" either.

Trinitarianism (why it has to be three instead of two is a little ridiculous as well and should tell you something) is just one interpretation of Jesus' nature, a nature which is ultimately a mystery, and there's not even any clear, undebatable scriptural support that the Apostles and other early disciples believed this, outside of Paul in a few places. Jesus taught in parables and his meaning is intentionally obscured for those without ears.

Also, if the early Christians had intended to go the route of polytheism, the Council of Nicea wouldn't have been necessary at all - there was a serious disagreement among Christians about Jesus' nature. The prevalence of trinitarianism is just one more way in which Jesus' teachings were Hellenized.

The Greatest Commandment has nothing to do with believing Jesus is God and Jesus never asked us to do so. Jesus is my Brother, King, Teacher and Friend, but he is not my Father - Jesus provides us with the Holy Spirit, and judges us at the Resurrection, but God our Father forgives our sins.

I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Then, they wanted to stone Him. Why? Because He was referring to Himself as God. The words “I AM” were the same words which the Septuagint6 used to translate the first “I AM” from the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14. God continued in verse 15,

God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, [c] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

Above is one example where Jesus says He is God, and then I gave the OT reference as well.

I'm a little confused why you believe Jesus wasn't before Adam, when Jesus was never created and has neither beginning or end.

As to He and His father being one, means they are one. The trinity is God and all which that consists of. So, a reading of the gospels clearly explains what it means, and since you read it, I figured I wouldn't need post on that.

Jesus also said, no man comes to the Father but by me.

So, if one says they know the Father, but don't know Jesus they in fact don't know the Father.

I am speaking of NT times only. OT is another topic.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph is a saying of some, and Mary and Joseph are sinners, but some call on such as it their habit or teaching. No clue why one would call on sinners for help. Jesus of course is sinless.

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed

You called Jesus dead as refers to this verse. He is not dead obviously.

Also, note that Jesus does not deny He is God. As you know well that Jesus does not sin, well, I would hope you might know or believe that, he has no sin, and if Thomas just lied, or spoke in error Jesus would have said so.

But He didn't at all, He said because you have seen me, you believed.. So He didn't deny He was God when Thomas realized He is God.

You know Jesus' character alone by the gospels and that Jesus only speaks truth.

You wrote in another post why do most call pastors fathers. I never have, nor have many Christians, so that's a theological thing.

I wouldn't worry and I don't personally worry myself, about why some do such, but if you were interested to know why they do, could post in OBOB one body one blood, Catholic, and they would explain, as well as some other denominations do such, and they would tell you which other ones do. Majority Christans do not, but Catholics do, if you consider them majority, then I understand but I don't see Catholcs as majority of believers.

you wrote:

The Greatest Commandment has nothing to do with believing Jesus is God and Jesus never asked us to do so

You said the greatest commandment has nothing to do with believing Jesus is God. It has nothing to do with believing anyone is God, but Jesus said:

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Only those who believe in God love God. So it is not about belief in God at all, but is something believers do.

again you wrote:

The Greatest Commandment has nothing to do with believing Jesus is God and Jesus never asked us to do so

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

speaking of the Holy Spirit

When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I didn't go into the epistles where there is much more, and just took very little to give you the above scriptures.

As to forgiveness for sins, just posting one scripture for now:

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

Speaking of Jesus

11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[a]'[b] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

.