Jesus’ Commandments-What Commandments?

[Leaf473]

Indeed, people have different interpretations of the Bible, though not all interpretations are created equal, which is why is why it is so important to discuss our interpretations to determine which, if any, has merit, though there is a significant difference between discussing how to correctly interpret what Leviticus 19:27 is commanding God's people to do and you interpreting God's word as speaking against obeying God's word when the Sabbath isn't even mentioned once in Romans 14. Again, the topic stated in Romans 14:1 is in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow His commands, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as speaking against obeying God's commands, as if Paul had the authority to countermand God. The reason why we are to keep the Sabbath holy is not became man esteemed it as a disputable matter of opinion, but because God rest on on it, blessed it, made it holy, commanded His people to keep it holy, and because what is holy to God should not be profaned by man.

I'm just saying that if a person gives themselves permission to interpret God's laws, it seems reasonable and loving to extend that same permission to other people.

Does my interpretation of the Sabbath seem like too big of a stretch to you? That's okay. It doesn't seem like a big stretch to me.

Have a good one!

 

[Soyeong]

I'm just saying that if a person gives themselves permission to interpret God's laws, it seems reasonable and loving to extend that same permission to other people.

Does my interpretation of the Sabbath seem like too big of a stretch to you? That's okay. It doesn't seem like a big stretch to me.

Have a good one!

Every time someone reads the Bible, they have an understanding of what they read that is their interpretation. No one need permission to do this and I have said nothing against people having permission to interpret the Bible. We disagree about how Romans 14 should be interpreted, so let's discuss it. When God has commanded something and you think that Paul spoke against obeying what God commanded as if he were not a servant of God, then it should not be difficult for you to figure out which one has the higher authority and which one we should follow, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's commands. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they spoke against obeying His law, so those who do not consider Paul to be a false prophet should not interpret him in ways that make him out to be a false prophet, especially when Paul did not directly mention the Sabbath in Romans 14.

 

[DamianWarS]

Yes, those laws were probably given to make the Israelites separate from the other nations. I can't be sure, it's not stated, but that certainly seems to be the most likely explanation.

And this brings up something that I think underlies most discussions about the law:
Christians know on a gut level (as in "written on their hearts") the general direction of the Christian Life and which laws fit with that and which don't.

No one that I've talked to, including Messianics, believe that God is concerned about the content of their socks.

And yes, it's not the pagan practices as such that have to be avoided. I think that in Corinth at that time, many people probably thought that when you ate the sacrifices of a god, you took on some of the characteristics and essence of that god and participated in its worship.

But if you knew that the "god" was just a statue, then it didn't matter. But not everyone had that knowledge, and some people were stumbling.

separation laws go further too and I may have oversimplified. Peter's dream reveals that the dietary laws are actually not about food at all they are about the God's spirit being poured out in first to the Jews, then to all. At least we know dietary laws mean this (since it's explicit) and I think restrictions with mixing things (like grains, threads, etc..) may have a similar focus. So broadly we can say it's about being set apart but if we listen to Peter's dream then it may be more God's spirit first through the Jews than to all that these things represent. What was formally unclean is now clean and in that spirit go ahead and eat pork and shellfish but also go ahead and mix your grains, or mix your threads not in protest to the old but in the celebration of the new.

I'm not sure that the trimming beards fall under the same thing and your original remark about not being pagan may be the focus whereas today it is about being "different" in a way that gives God glory or in a sense "trimming" our hearts to be better.

 

[honey badger]

take no thought ...

 

[Albion]

How much stock could we take in Matthew 22:34-40?

Quite a lot, I should think.

But you have Jesus in Matthew 5:18-19 saying, “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least vin the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great vin the kingdom of heaven.” With Lord Jesus, God’s Commandments are his Commandments.

And what is it that is to be “accomplished”? Based on the reading of the Bible, it is to fulfill the two great commandments of Jesus, mentioned above. The inference is that once we achieve loving God and eachother, we need not be mindful of the 400 some-odd Laws in the Old Testament.

I don't believe that follows logically. Christ gave "his" two but didn't set the other, existing commandments aside. Those who have faith will be saved, but those who more diligently adhere to the Decalogue will find extra rewards in heaven.

When we love God and each other, we don’t need directions from the Law.

Wrong, so far as the Ten Commandments are concerned. Everyone should know that the OT rituals, etc. were set aside.

But until then? Jesus tells us not to throw it away until we truly love him.

There you go! It's really not that confusing or complicated.

 

[Leaf473]

Every time someone reads the Bible, they have an understanding of what they read that is their interpretation. No one need permission to do this and I have said nothing against people having permission to interpret the Bible. We disagree about how Romans 14 should be interpreted, so let's discuss it. When God has commanded something and you think that Paul spoke against obeying what God commanded as if he were not a servant of God, then it should not be difficult for you to figure out which one has the higher authority and which one we should follow, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's commands. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they spoke against obeying His law, so those who do not consider Paul to be a false prophet should not interpret him in ways that make him out to be a false prophet, especially when Paul did not directly mention the Sabbath in Romans 14.

By "permission" I just mean the idea that when a person looks at a law that doesn't really fit with what they know about the character of God, the proper thing to do is to look at word definitions or other scriptures and try to find a way of looking at that law that does fit with what they know about God.

This is opposed to the Authority model, such as consulting a priest or Bishop who speaks for the church or a rabbi who speaks for the rabbinical traditions.

I think Jesus alludes to this when he tells people to listen to what the scribes say because they sit in the seat of Moses. Of course, he tells them not to imitate their behavior.

And yes, it's good to compare our interpretations with those of our Christian brothers and sisters.

Of course Paul is not a false prophet. But we may not have the same understanding of what the law says and its role in our lives that Paul did.

Peace be with you!

 

[Leaf473]

separation laws go further too and I may have oversimplified. Peter's dream reveals that the dietary laws are actually not about food at all they are about the God's spirit being poured out in first to the Jews, then to all. At least we know dietary laws mean this (since it's explicit) and I think restrictions with mixing things (like grains, threads, etc..) may have a similar focus. So broadly we can say it's about being set apart but if we listen to Peter's dream then it may be more God's spirit first through the Jews than to all that these things represent. What was formally unclean is now clean and in that spirit go ahead and eat pork and shellfish but also go ahead and mix your grains, or mix your threads not in protest to the old but in the celebration of the new.

I'm not sure that the trimming beards fall under the same thing and your original remark about not being pagan may be the focus whereas today it is about being "different" in a way that gives God glory or in a sense "trimming" our hearts to be better.

That would fit well with "to the Jew first and then to the Greek."

And I agree that the law has a deeper spiritual focus, and I think that's probably the best way to look at it.

I think that's what the OP was getting at, too.

 

[Soyeong]

By "permission" I just mean the idea that when a person looks at a law that doesn't really fit with what they know about the character of God, the proper thing to do is to look at word definitions or other scriptures and try to find a way of looking at that law that does fit with what they know about God.

This is opposed to the Authority model, such as consulting a priest or Bishop who speaks for the church or a rabbi who speaks for the rabbinical traditions.

I think Jesus alludes to this when he tells people to listen to what the scribes say because they sit in the seat of Moses. Of course, he tells them not to imitate their behavior.

And yes, it's good to compare our interpretations with those of our Christian brothers and sisters.

Of course Paul is not a false prophet. But we may not have the same understanding of what the law says and its role in our lives that Paul did.

Peace be with you!

The goal of God's law is to bless us by teaching us how to know Jesus through experiencing His character/nature by walking in His way, which is eternal life/salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might experientially know Him, and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught His way through His law, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter into eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so again this is the way of salvation by grace through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to experience these aspects of His nature is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation.

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refuse to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in expressing and experiencing these and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law is the way to experientially know Him, and Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his action by living in sinless obedience to God's law. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, and in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again knowing Christ is the goal of the law.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which again is because it is God's instructions for how to express, experience, love, believe in, and testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). God’s way is described as being aspects of His nature being righteous and just (Genesis 18:19), righteous, blameless, merciful, pure, humble, light, perfect, true, liberty, and gentleness (2 Samuel 22:21-37), and again there are many verses that describe God's law as being instruction for how to walk in His way, such as Joshua 22:5, Psalms 25:4-10, Psalms 103:1-8, Psalms 119:1-8, Isaiah 42:24, and Malachi 2:4-9, so again God's law was given to teach us how to express, experience, love, believe in, and testify about His nature.

Keeping the Sabbath holy in particular testifies that there is a Creator who created the world in six days, who rested on the 7th, who is holy, and who interacts with His creation to save His people out of bondage, while not keeping the Sabbath holy is denying the truth of these things. Some laws are less clear, so they essentially invite us to ponder what they are teaching us about God's nature, but if they did not reflect God's nature, then He would not have commanded them. The only way for any of God's laws to be abolished is if what they teach us about God's eternal nature is no longer true.

 

[Leaf473]

The goal of God's law is to bless us by teaching us how to know Jesus through experiencing His character/nature by walking in His way, which is eternal life/salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might experientially know Him, and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught His way through His law, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter into eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so again this is the way of salvation by grace through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to experience these aspects of His nature is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation.

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refuse to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in expressing and experiencing these and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law is the way to experientially know Him, and Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his action by living in sinless obedience to God's law. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, and in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again knowing Christ is the goal of the law.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which again is because it is God's instructions for how to express, experience, love, believe in, and testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). God’s way is described as being aspects of His nature being righteous and just (Genesis 18:19), righteous, blameless, merciful, pure, humble, light, perfect, true, liberty, and gentleness (2 Samuel 22:21-37), and again there are many verses that describe God's law as being instruction for how to walk in His way, such as Joshua 22:5, Psalms 25:4-10, Psalms 103:1-8, Psalms 119:1-8, Isaiah 42:24, and Malachi 2:4-9, so again God's law was given to teach us how to express, experience, love, believe in, and testify about His nature.

Keeping the Sabbath holy in particular testifies that there is a Creator who created the world in six days, who rested on the 7th, who is holy, and who interacts with His creation to save His people out of bondage, while not keeping the Sabbath holy is denying the truth of these things. Some laws are less clear, so they essentially invite us to ponder what they are teaching us about God's nature, but if they did not reflect God's nature, then He would not have commanded them. The only way for any of God's laws to be abolished is if what they teach us about God's eternal nature is no longer true.

I was following what you were saying up until this part:

Keeping the Sabbath holy in particular testifies that there is a Creator who created the world in six days, who rested on the 7th, who is holy, and who interacts with His creation to save His people out of bondage, while not keeping the Sabbath holy is denying the truth of these things. Some laws are less clear, so they essentially invite us to ponder what they are teaching us about God's nature, but if they did not reflect God's nature, then He would not have commanded them. The only way for any of God's laws to be abolished is if what they teach us about God's eternal nature is no longer true.

I believe that represents a particular interpretation of the Sabbath commandment.

Just as you have a different interpretation of the beard trimming commandment than many rabbis today,
you and I have a different interpretation of the Sabbath commandments.

Many people who identify as Sabbath keepers are willing to climb in their car and drive 20 minutes to their gathering on the Sabbath. But others, especially strictly observant Jews will drive only a short distance or not at all. That's their understanding of the stay in your place and no kindling of fires laws, I think.

Jesus disagreed with the Pharisees over what amounts and types of work were allowed on the Sabbath.

So there are different ways to interpret the Sabbath.

Great discussion, may the Lord bless you and keep you!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

While there are many ways to interpret scripture, there is only one Truth. We should always worship God in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24

Most Christians seem to embrace 9 of the Ten commandments for everyday Christian living, but the one commandment people seem to stumble on is the Sabbath commandment. The only one God started with the word "remember" and uses the words "blessed" and 'holy".

There is no scripture saying we have to stay home on the Sabbath. In fact scripture tells us it is a holy convocation Leviticus 23:3 and we see Jesus going to the Temple on the Sabbath days reading God's Word and keeping all the commandments of God as our example.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes there is only one truth, and one of the interesting things is that each person here believes that their interpretation of the scriptures is that truth.

And I think that's one of the great things about places like CF. It gives us a chance to fellowship with other Christians who have also studied the Bible and have come to different interpretations.

The idea of a Sabbath Day's journey is mentioned in the scriptures.

I live near a large US city that has a significant Jewish population. If you drive through the Jewish section on Saturday, you'll see a lot of Jewish people in the traditional garb of their community walking, but not driving. You'll also notice a lot of large synagogues with no parking lot. That particular community doesn't drive to their Sabbath gathering.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes there is only one truth, and one of the interesting things is that each person here believes that their interpretation of the scriptures is that truth.

And I think that's one of the great things about places like CF. It gives us a chance to fellowship with other Christians who have also studied the Bible and have come to different interpretations.

The idea of a Sabbath Day's journey is mentioned in the scriptures.

I live near a large US city that has a significant Jewish population. If you drive through the Jewish section on Saturday, you'll see a lot of Jewish people in the traditional garb of their community walking, but not driving. You'll also notice a lot of large synagogues with no parking lot. That particular community doesn't drive to their Sabbath gathering.

Yes, many people have many interpretations, but only one interpretation can be supported by scripture. There is one Truth, not many, which is why we are told:

Acts 17:11 searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so and 2 Corinthians 3:15 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.


Where a lot of people go wrong is trying to find truth outside of scripture, because the scripture is the only thing we know for sure is God’s Word and we are told not to add or change one thing to scripture. Proverbs 30:5-6


Many Jews in scripture were adding things to God’s Sabbath that was never in scripture or given by God. Jesus was correcting many of the Pharisees who were adding to God’s Words and the Sabbath.

I go by scripture, not what is outside of scripture and there is nothing saying we can’t go to church on the Sabbath day. Jesus was our example who was reading God’s Word in fellowship Luke 4:16-22 on the Sabbath and the Sabbath is a holy convocation Leviticus 23:3 according to God.

While we are free to do whatever we want, Jesus gives us clear instructions to not add to His Word and we are told that if one is teaching what is not in scripture, there is no light in them. Which why it's so important to not add our own interpretations to what is so clearly written in scripture. The devil is out to deceive the whole world, the scripture is the only Word that can be trusted.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, many people have many interpretations, but only one interpretation can be supported by scripture. There is one Truth, not many, which is why we are told:

Acts 17:11 searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so and 2 Corinthians 3:15 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.


Where a lot of people go wrong is trying to find truth outside of scripture, because the scripture is the only thing we know for sure is God’s Word and we are told not to add or change one thing to scripture. Proverbs 30:5-6


Many Jews in scripture were adding things to God’s Sabbath that was never in scripture or given by God. Jesus was correcting many of the Pharisees who were adding to God’s Words and the Sabbath.

I go by scripture, not what is outside of scripture and there is nothing saying we can’t go to church on the Sabbath day. Jesus was our example who was reading God’s Word in fellowship Luke 4:16-22 on the Sabbath and the Sabbath is a holy convocation Leviticus 23:3 according to God.

While we are free to do whatever we want, Jesus gives us clear instructions to not add to His Word and we are told that if one is teaching what is not in scripture, there is no light in them. Which why it's so important to not add our own interpretations to what is so clearly written in scripture. The devil is out to deceive the whole world, the scripture is the only Word that can be trusted.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God bless.

Every person believes they have found that one truth in the scriptures, don't they? That's why it's good to "compare notes". Like it says in Proverbs, "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."

Yes, Jesus went to "church" on the Sabbath. I think there were synagogues in every little village back then.

The Jewish people I was talking about, at the non-driving synagogues, I think they tend to live close by. Another reason why those Jewish communities are tightly knit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Every person believes they have found that one truth in the scriptures, don't they? That's why it's good to "compare notes". Like it says in Proverbs, "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."

Yes, Jesus went to "church" on the Sabbath. I think there were synagogues in every little village back then.

The Jewish people I was talking about, at the non-driving synagogues, I think they tend to live close by. Another reason why those Jewish communities are tightly knit.

What I see is people going outside of the Word of God to challenge the plain written Word of God, or not accepting plainly written scripture.

Church is what we call Temples today, it is a dwelling place to worship our Lord and Savior, the name of the building is not as important, Jesus was going to the Temple on the Sabbath day as our example reading the Word of God. Luke 4:16-22, we see this supported as well in Leviticus 23:3 and keeping the Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8-11, John 15:10

There are lots of traditions that Jews have and while there is nothing wrong with traditions as long as one is not placing them above God’s commandments.

God bless and take care.

 

[Leaf473]

What I see is people going outside of the Word of God to challenge the plain written Word of God, or not accepting plainly written scripture.

Church is what we call Temples today, it is a dwelling place to worship our Lord and Savior, the name of the building is not as important, Jesus was going to the Temple on the Sabbath day as our example reading the Word of God. Luke 4:16-22, we see this supported as well in Leviticus 23:3 and keeping the Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8-11, John 15:10

There are lots of traditions that Jews have and while there is nothing wrong with traditions as long as one is not placing them above God’s commandments.

God bless and take care.

In Luke 4, Jesus is reading in a synagogue. I believe there was only one temple, the one in Jerusalem. I'm sure that when Jesus was there on the Sabbath that's where he went.

Whether the idea of a Sabbath Day's journey is part of the Sabbath commandment is a matter of interpretation, imo.

Peace be with you!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In Luke 4, Jesus is reading in a synagogue. I believe there was only one temple, the one in Jerusalem. I'm sure that when Jesus was there on the Sabbath that's where he went.

Whether the idea of a Sabbath Day's journey is part of the Sabbath commandment is a matter of interpretation, imo.

Peace be with you!

Did you read that Jesus was in the Temple as it was His custom? Meaning that is what He did on a regular basis.

We are told to keep the Sabbath holy- Jesus showed us how He did that by reading scripture in the Temples as His custom on the Sabbath day which supports Leviticus 23:3 Exodus 20:8-11, John 15:10 Isaiah 58:13-14

 

[Leaf473]

Did you read that Jesus was in the Temple as it was His custom? Meaning that is what He did on a regular basis.

We are told to keep the Sabbath holy- Jesus showed us how He did that by reading scripture in the Temples as His custom on the Sabbath day which supports Leviticus 23:3 Exodus 20:8-11, John 15:10 Isaiah 58:13-14

Yes, Jesus went to synagogues or the Temple on the Sabbath. As I understand it, there was just one Temple in Jerusalem and then every little village had its own synagogue.

What I'm bringing up is not about attending synagogue/temple/church on the Sabbath. It's about the idea of a Sabbath Day's journey. That is something from the scriptures.

I had a busy day dealing with government bureaucracies, so I'm heading to bed for now. Looking forward to talking to you in the morning,

Peace be with you!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, Jesus went to synagogues or the Temple on the Sabbath. As I understand it, there was just one Temple in Jerusalem and then every little village had its own synagogue.

What I'm bringing up is not about attending synagogue/temple/church on the Sabbath. It's about the idea of a Sabbath Day's journey. That is something from the scriptures.

I had a busy day dealing with government bureaucracies, so I'm heading to bed for now. Looking forward to talking to you in the morning,

Peace be with you!

Maybe you can quote what you are referring to.

Sorry you had a tough day.

God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

Maybe you can quote what you are referring to.

Sorry you had a tough day.

God bless.

Thank you for the kind words.

Acts 1 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

Peace be with you!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thank you for the kind words.

Acts 1 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

Peace be with you!

And what do you think this means? It sort of defeats the statement that you can’t leave your house on the Sabbath or travel.