Jeremiah`s vision

[SMITTY7000]

Among our Christian community the “young earth” and “old earth” camps have been going at it for longer than I can remember. The scriptures and the questions I list at the bottom of the page are not for the spirit of battle but for honest debate with scripture reference. I am of the “old earth” camp and my purpose is to give a stage for honest and sincere comment for all and hopefully this can be done without bickering and snide remarks. We are Christian, and we should approach each and every one with respect even in the face of a disagreement. I think we can all agree on this one thing _ At this point in time, only God can bring us to one mind. While we disagree on certain matters, we must still follow that Golden Rule.
Jeremiah`s Vision
Jeremiah 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. Psalm 104:2 Isaiah 40:22 poetic scriptural language for the heavens
:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 45:18 Our Father says He did not create the Earth this way.
:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
:27 For thus hath the Lord said, the whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Let us ask ourselves the question:
When Did These Scriptures Happen? Is There Any Evidence That It Happened Since The 6 Days Of Genesis 1? Is There Any Record [ Other Than The Bible ] That This Has Taken Place? Why was our Father so angry that He destroyed these cities?
Note: The only time the sun and moon were not present and giving light was before the six days of Genesis. He made them on the fourth day and they have been giving light ever since. There never has been a time or will be a time when there were no men on earth since then. Yet Jeremiah said all the cities were broken down and no men were there.

 

[Cat Loaf You]

People say that this is judgement of God "gap theory" which happend Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 but it can't be , because Satan still not rebel against God till at least 6 day , we know that from Ezekiel 28:

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

So Satan was still in charge when he was in Eden is some way, so he could not fall according to "gap theory ".

Other people say it was Destruction of Sodom and Gommorah .
It could be destruction of some other kind of city or global flood.We don't know .

About sun not giving light , it will happen in future so this is not related to creation of sun or moon but simply it could be that God used thick clouds to block them like he used them when he appeared before people of Isreal so they could not see his face because they would die .

 

[Piet Strydom]

When Did These Scriptures Happen? Is There Any Evidence That It Happened Since The 6 Days Of Genesis 1? Is There Any Record [ Other Than The Bible ] That This Has Taken Place? Why was our Father so angry that He destroyed these cities?

This was prophecies given on coming events.
verses 23 to 26 says this is what will happen (I Saw...)
verses 27 clarifies it totally that this is what God will do to Jerusalem.
and Why do you so nicely insert these words in the context of this prophecy?

Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 45:18 Our Father says He did not create the Earth this way.

it should not be there.
Jeremiah was giving prophecies on the army of Nebuchadnezzar who will destroy the whole land and Jerusalem and will remove all the inhabitants to Babylon!
This has nothing to do with creation

 

[tdidymas]

Among our Christian community the “young earth” and “old earth” camps have been going at it for longer than I can remember. The scriptures and the questions I list at the bottom of the page are not for the spirit of battle but for honest debate with scripture reference. I am of the “old earth” camp and my purpose is to give a stage for honest and sincere comment for all and hopefully this can be done without bickering and snide remarks. We are Christian, and we should approach each and every one with respect even in the face of a disagreement. I think we can all agree on this one thing _ At this point in time, only God can bring us to one mind. While we disagree on certain matters, we must still follow that Golden Rule.
Jeremiah`s Vision
Jeremiah 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. Psalm 104:2 Isaiah 40:22 poetic scriptural language for the heavens
:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 45:18 Our Father says He did not create the Earth this way.
:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
:27 For thus hath the Lord said, the whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Let us ask ourselves the question:
When Did These Scriptures Happen? Is There Any Evidence That It Happened Since The 6 Days Of Genesis 1? Is There Any Record [ Other Than The Bible ] That This Has Taken Place? Why was our Father so angry that He destroyed these cities?
Note: The only time the sun and moon were not present and giving light was before the six days of Genesis. He made them on the fourth day and they have been giving light ever since. There never has been a time or will be a time when there were no men on earth since then. Yet Jeremiah said all the cities were broken down and no men were there.

I believe that trying to use a symbolic passage literally is a misuse of scripture. This is the whole problem of trying to use Gen 1 as a scientific textbook. The term "without form and void" simply means chaotic, or not in proper order. In the Jeremiah context it is obviously exaggerative, and therefore figurative, language.

If Gen 1 is interpreted literally, the statement "and the Earth was without form and void, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" would have to mean that the Earth actually existed at that point in time. But the problem with a gap theory or a preadamic race theory is that v. 1 says "in the beginning" and the context is creation, not re-creation. In all passages of scripture referring to Gen 1 it talks of the beginning of creation. John also in Jn. 1 uses the same kind of figurative language as Gen. 1.
TD

 

[SMITTY7000]

People say that this is judgement of God "gap theory" which happend Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 but it can't be , because Satan still not rebel against God till at least 6 day , we know that from Ezekiel 28:

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Thanks for the reply Cat Loaf You,
If you are referring to Satan being in Eden when Adam and Eve were there he had to have been fallen because he caused the fall of those two by tempting and seducing Eve. Satan was the serpent in the garden, and we know that by his being identified by God`s Word in Revelation 12:9 and then again in Revelation 20:2. We know he seduced her there by understanding 2 Corinthians 11:3 and the word inspired by the Holy Spirit which is beguiled _ exapataō From [ Strongs] G1537 and G538; to seduce wholly: - beguile, deceive

Ezekiel 28:13 as you pointed out describes this cherub as wearing the Breastplate of a Priest [Exodus 39:8-14] so he must have been a Priest to be able to wear it. He also had sanctuaries spoken of in :18, which are places of worship, which he defiled by his iniquities and traffick of trade goods. He then was given a death sentence in :18-19 sentenced to become ashes upon the earth and never to be any more.

Satan was in Eden, the garden of God but this was sometimes after the 6 days of Genesis as God had finished that work as written in Genesis 2:1 after which he rested on the seventh day and then planted this garden after He had formed this singular man Adam. :7-8 This is the man Adam who God would use to begin the bloodline that would bring forth the Savior, Jesus Christ. You can see this Genealogy in Luke :23-38 all the way from the man Adam to Jesus.

Satan is alive only because our Father is not through using him to bring about his Plan. Revelation 12:4 explains that Satan drew 1/3 of God`s children away from Him in a rebellion against our Father. This is why he is sentenced to death. God`s Plan of Salvation is to save those children who rebelled. You can read of this rebellion in Isaiah 14:12-15 where Satan who was then called Lucifer ascended in to heaven from where his throne was on earth, where he had been placed over all of God`s Children. He went up from earth with that 1/3 of God`s children to battle against God. He failed.

Let us ask ourselves the question:

When Did These Scriptures Happen? Is There Any Evidence That It Happened Since The 6 Days Of Genesis 1? Is There Any Record [ Other Than The Bible ] That This Has Taken Place? Is it possible that these events took place before the genesis account?

 

[SMITTY7000]

I believe that trying to use a symbolic passage literally is a misuse of scripture. This is the whole problem of trying to use Gen 1 as a scientific textbook. The term "without form and void" simply means chaotic, or not in proper order. In the Jeremiah context it is obviously exaggerative, and therefore figurative, language.

If Gen 1 is interpreted literally, the statement "and the Earth was without form and void, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" would have to mean that the Earth actually existed at that point in time. But the problem with a gap theory or a preadamic race theory is that v. 1 says "in the beginning" and the context is creation, not re-creation. In all passages of scripture referring to Gen 1 it talks of the beginning of creation. John also in Jn. 1 uses the same kind of figurative language as Gen. 1.
TD

Tdidymas, thanks for the reply,
The God I know and worship does not and did not create a ruin. To be a ruin it must become that way.
He does nothing in disorder. He is not the author of confusion.
The earth existing before the 6 day period of Genesis is exactly the point I was making.
Jeremiah saw the same thing as Peter [ 2 Peter 3:5-6 ] a destroyed Earth. Whether a vision or revelation I do not know but the meanings are the same and scripture is the Word of God and His Word is Truth.
His word states that there was an world age that was destroyed before Genesis 1 - the ``world that then was`` and then states that we are in the ``world age which now is``:7, and waiting for the world age to come in:13. Hope this helps.

 

[SMITTY7000]

This was prophecies given on coming events.
verses 23 to 26 says this is what will happen (I Saw...)
verses 27 clarifies it totally that this is what God will do to Jerusalem.
and Why do you so nicely insert these words in the context of this prophecy?

it should not be there.
Jeremiah was giving prophecies on the army of Nebuchadnezzar who will destroy the whole land and Jerusalem and will remove all the inhabitants to Babylon!
This has nothing to do with creation

Jeremiah 4:23 Is it possible that Father uses the same words here that he uses in Genesis. – “without form and void” [ ``tohoo va boohoo`` H8414 and H922] to draw our attention to that verse. He does the same thing in Isaiah 45:18 where He uses the word “vain” which is H8414. This may not mean a thing to you, but it sure raises a flag for me.

:24-26 Do these verses mean that when Nebuchadnezzar came against Jerusalem that there was no man left there. Did Neb. make away with all the birds. Did he destroy all the fruitful places and did he destroy all the cities. Did Neb make all the mountains move?

I believe this is referring to something our Lord did because it says all the cities were broken down “at the presence of the Lord”, not Nebuchadnezzar. I believe it to be the Lord`s doing.

Think about this one thing, If the Creator did not create the earth as it is described in Genesis 1:2 which Isaiah 45:18 proclaims then the earth became that way and therefore is older that the 6 day Genesis account. Now his word says He did not create it this way and I believe it.

 

[tdidymas]

Tdidymas, thanks for the reply,
The God I know and worship does not and did not create a ruin. To be a ruin it must become that way.
He does nothing in disorder. He is not the author of confusion.
The earth existing before the 6 day period of Genesis is exactly the point I was making.
Jeremiah saw the same thing as Peter [ 2 Peter 3:5-6 ] a destroyed Earth. Whether a vision or revelation I do not know but the meanings are the same and scripture is the Word of God and His Word is Truth.
His word states that there was an world age that was destroyed before Genesis 1 - the ``world that then was`` and then states that we are in the ``world age which now is``:7, and waiting for the world age to come in:13. Hope this helps.

I disagree with your interpretation.
TD