Jeremiah 1:5

[Wiccan_Child]

How do pro-abortion Christians reconcile their views with this:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5.

I suppose you could say that God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived because he was specially created, and that most humans are only 'known' later on.

Thoughts? Ideas? Apples?

 

[Axioma]

The quote seems to me to put the claim that life begins at conception to the lie, since God is clearly saying that he also knew Jeremiah before he was even formed in the womb. Thus,, it is proven that every sperm and egg that doesn't end up as a living breathing human being is a murdered baby.

 

[Washington]

That god, being omniscient guy that he is, can see into the future and obviously saw Jeremiah doing his thing. What it means is that if a fertilized egg or even a fetus is aborted there would be no such future to see. So it's no biggie.

 

[Steezie]

Im curious to the response to this, however I'm not anticipating there to be one

 

[jayem]

It's always been my understanding that Orthodox Jews don't consider that personhood begins until a newborn takes its first breath. The most Orthodox Jews are still against elective abortion, but they recognize that fetal life is not quite the same, in the moral sense, as life after being born. These are the people who really study and live by the OT, so it would seem to me that Jeremiah 1:5 doesn't imply fetal personhood.

 

[Penumbra]

How do pro-abortion Christians reconcile their views with this:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5.

I suppose you could say that God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived because he was specially created, and that most humans are only 'known' later on.

Thoughts? Ideas? Apples?

My roommate was having a discussion with a guy about basically that topic and I was listening.

He was asking the theist about miscarriages, and used that very same verse. Basically, the question was, does god form people in the womb, get to know them, and then have them die 5 months into term before they get to do anything or know anything?

So I think that OP verse applies to all Christians and Jews, not merely pro-abortion ones.

-Lyn

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yay, controversy!

Personally, I think it's a blow for anti-abortionists: God knows you even before you're in the womb. God has given you a purpose before your constituent gametes have met.

 

[ebia]

How do pro-abortion Christians reconcile their views with this:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5.

I suppose you could say that God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived because he was specially created, and that most humans are only 'known' later on.

Thoughts? Ideas? Apples?

(I'm not "pro-abortion" but) The line is clearly poetic. Taken literally it says before I formed you in the womb..., so if that makes abortion murder it also makes contraception and even not having sex murder.

 

[Penumbra]

Yay, controversy!

Personally, I think it's a blow for anti-abortionists: God knows you even before you're in the womb. God has given you a purpose before your constituent gametes have met.

A good question would be whether or not abortion can mess up God's plan.

Christians often believe that God has an overarching plan, but also feel that humans have free choices. If a very large number of fetuses are aborted every year, can that make a dent in his plan? If no, then why worry about abortion?

-Lyn

 

[Wiccan_Child]

(I'm not "pro-abortion" but) The line is clearly poetic. Taken literally it says before I formed you in the womb..., so if that makes abortion murder it also makes contraception and even not having sex murder.

Hence the problem for both sides. Pro-abortionists are killing those in whom God has placed purpose, thereby ruining his plan and creating a Satanic theocracy. Anti-abortionists can't complain about babies being given souls and whatnot in utero, because God gives them all his God-given goodies before they're even conceived.

Unless, of course, you take it metaphorically, which is heretical and burn-at-the-stake worthy.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

A good question would be whether or not abortion can mess up God's plan.

Christians often believe that God has an overarching plan, but also feel that humans have free choices. If a very large number of fetuses are aborted every year, can that make a dent in his plan? If no, then why worry about abortion?

-Lyn

I've heard anti-abortionists say that God has a plan for everyone, so therefore abortions muck his plan up. But I always thing, "He's God ". Obviously, if God really wanted that person to live, he'd use his omnipotence and First Cause a failed abortion, thereby making the foetus survive.

Miscarriages are apparently God's way of aborting unwanted babies, so a) teenagers who don't miscarry are clearly carrying God's Chosen People, and b) abortions are just another way God gets rid of those in whom he has given no plan or purpose.

Abortions are from God.

The End.

 

[chingchang]

How do pro-abortion Christians reconcile their views with this:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5.

I suppose you could say that God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived because he was specially created, and that most humans are only 'known' later on.

Thoughts? Ideas? Apples?

Misuse. He was not speaking to 'mankind'. Also...do we think an omnipotent God's plan is hurt by man's effort? I'm kinda thinkin' if God needs someone to be born...that person WILL be born.

IMHO,
CC

 

[DeathMagus]

I just thought I'd mention that the scripture cited does not necessarily imply anything about when personhood begins. Just because all people are known before they are conceived does not mean that all conceptions include a person. Furthermore, there is no justification to assume that such is the case.

Why should sperm/egg that an omniscient deity knows will not conceive have souls created for each of them? Why should a fetus that an omniscient deity knows will be miscarried in 5 weeks need a soul created?