Jehovah's Witnesses Banned In Moscow

Marissa · Mar 28, 2004

ufonium2 said:
Anyone here think it's fair to deny a child a life-saving blood transfusion because the parents don't believe in it? Freedom of religion extends only until it infringes on someone else's rights. For instance, if I start a religion that calls for a weekly carjacking, my church isn't going to be allowed to carjack someone every Thursday just because we are a church. You can't commit neglegent homicide of children just because you are a church either.

The question is, where do we draw that line in regards to children? There are many religious practices those who don't hold to them feel are damaging.

Parents are responsible for raising their children "right". So long as it doesn't involve malicious intent, or direct physical harm I have serious issues on interfering. Who am I to tell them that their religion is bogus and to force my beliefs on them?

How would you feel if it became illegal to teach children religious beliefs, as some atheists feel should be the case? They're your religious beliefs, and they're not directly harming the children why shouldn't you be allowed to teach them that and expect them to live by them? The same goes for JW's.

Science Girl · Mar 28, 2004

I am not surprised. Russia is a very anti-Semetic, anti-Israel, anti-American nation. Such facist nations will of course behave as such.

Marissa · Mar 28, 2004

Science Girl said:
I am not surprised. Russia is a very anti-Semetic, anti-Israel, anti-American nation. Such facist nations will of course behave as such.

JW's aren't jews.

Nor are they Isreali, and their support of Isreal is likely similiar to support among other "christian" denominations.

Nor are they "American".

How are these points relevant?

elijahlexis · Mar 28, 2004

who do people think they are
getting on their cases
they are convicted
they are persistent
they are our brothers
(everyman is made in the image of God and Christ died for all)
where is the Truth that is Christ ever gonna reach them
how will it reach them
all this hate and joking (veiled prejudice)
where is the love?
where is the prayer for our brethren?
i could come up with a million things i personally don't like about them
right off the top of my head!
i beg God's forgiveness for that
that i would see another man
in any other way than loving
i should be seeing vessels to pour into
not vessels to shatter
God and God alone i sthe Potter
let's let Him do the molding
you will know your brother by his love

elijahlexis · Mar 28, 2004

i get as aggravated as anyone that they come around uninvited
i get anxious and all that
they used to coem at me, and catch me off gaurd
i was hating
it is all just prejudice
try conversing
listen
see all the truth
edify
equip
they may be

Science Girl · Mar 28, 2004

Marissa said:
JW's aren't jews.

Nor are they Isreali, and their support of Isreal is likely similiar to support among other "christian" denominations.

Nor are they "American".

How are these points relevant?

People who hates Jews tend to hate Christians as well.

Marissa · Mar 28, 2004

Science Girl said:
People who hates Jews tend to hate Christians as well.

Does that go for the catholic church as well? It was the official policy of Rome for many years that Jews were to blame for the Lords death. Much anti-semitism from christians has sprung from that.

By the way, other than muslims, most who hate jews hate all religious folk.

elijahlexis · Mar 28, 2004

you all are going off on a tangent here,
really

Science Girl · Mar 28, 2004

Marissa said:
Does that go for the catholic church as well? It was the official policy of Rome for many years that Jews were to blame for the Lords death. Much anti-semitism from christians has sprung from that.

By the way, other than muslims, most who hate jews hate all religious folk.

The Bible clearly says some Jews killed Christ. But not all Jews, and not today's Jews who were not even alive at that time. So, it would be completely irrational to hate today's Jews because of what a small handful of Jews did 2,000 years ago.

Glacial · Mar 28, 2004

Science Girl said:
Such facist nations will of course behave as such.

Errr, since Russia is an ex-soviet nation, it's effectively the exact opposite of a fascist nation. Unless you're confusing communism and fascism, of course.

jameseb · Mar 28, 2004

ufonium2 said:
Anyone here think it's fair to deny a child a life-saving blood transfusion because the parents don't believe in it? Freedom of religion extends only until it infringes on someone else's rights. For instance, if I start a religion that calls for a weekly carjacking, my church isn't going to be allowed to carjack someone every Thursday just because we are a church. You can't commit neglegent homicide of children just because you are a church either.

The article is misleading. Catholicism wasn't listed as an allowed religion in Russia, but there are Catholic churches there. Notice there were three non-Christian religions officially allowed as well. So, it's not a vast Orthodox conspiracy to do away with any and all heterodox churches. Maybe instead of jumping to that conclusion, they could have taken the court's word for their reasoning behind the decision.

THANK YOU! I was about to respond to Marissa's comment, but you covered what needed to be said to the 'T.' Rep coming up for you!

Marissa · Mar 28, 2004

How about my next post then James? Where do we draw the line? There are many mainstream christian practises that non-christians consider damaging and abusive. Surely, we should outlaw those too?

Science Girl said:
The Bible clearly says some Jews killed Christ. But not all Jews, and not today's Jews who were not even alive at that time. So, it would be completely irrational to hate today's Jews because of what a small handful of Jews did 2,000 years ago.

I don't recall saying it was rational. I recall saying that is what the catholic church,and many christians (both catholic and prostestant) believed for many years. Whether or not it's rational has no bearing on whether or not it's true. People believe and behave irrationally all the time.

HisEagle · Mar 28, 2004

Marissa said:
No. I thought it was fairly clear that I was addressing those who supported the ban.

That "lot" are hypocrites.

Sorry. I misunderstood what you meant by the word "lot". Somehow, I was thinking you meant all of us. Just call it a brain fart!

Blessed75 said:
Oh whatever - anyone ever heard of freedom of speech?

I'm with ya', hon - but let's keep in mind that the Constitutional right to free speech is an exclusively American thing, and doesn't apply to Russia. They don't abide by our laws and rights. Our Constitution doesn't apply to other countries.

ufonium2 · Mar 28, 2004

lared said:
Anyone here think it's fair to abort a living baby in a womb? (What was the religion of those that passed that law?)

Atheist. The vast majority of Christians pro-life (remember, the RCC is by itself a majority of Christians and they are completely pro-life, as are the EO who are the second biggest sect of Christianity) and have been fighting abortion in America since the day it was legalized.

Anyone here think it's fair to raise your child with the expectation of him or her of becoming a soldier, so that they can kill and wound other people? (What is the religion of those that do?)

Wait, soldiers are adults. They make the choice. We can "raise them" to be anything, but in the end they make the choice.

Anyone here think it's fair for parents to smoke cigarrettes in the presence of their children? (What is the religion of those that do?) I do, because children do not drop dead when parents light up. They may be uncomfortable from it, be a half-inch shorter as adults or whatever, but nobody would smoke around their kids if they thought it would kill them.

Anyone here think it's fair to circumcise a baby boy or girl? (What is the religion of those that do?) Does male circumcision kill the baby? No. Does it even harm them physically in the long term? No. 99.99% of male children suffer no ill-effects from circumcision. 100% of kids who need a transusion to live and are denied one by their JW parents die. Edited to add: Female circumcision is harmful, granted, but name me one major religion that calls for it. It's outlawed almost everywhere, and condemned by almost every religion.

Anyone here think it's fair to strap explosives to a teenage child and send him off into a crowd? (What is the religion of those that do?) Show me in the Bible, Torah, or Koran where it says to do this. Anybody of any religion that does this is going against the teaching of their religion. If they really believed in Jihad or Zionism or whatever their excuse, they would do it themselves, but they are cowards so they kill children against the teachings of their faith. That's the difference. These extremists are acting against their faith by killing children, and JWs kill children because their faith commands them to.

Etc, etc.

Just ban all religions? Nope, just the ones that kill children as a matter of dogma.

ufonium2 · Mar 28, 2004

groundhog said:
let's keep in mind that the Constitutional right to free speech is an exclusively American thing, and doesn't apply to Russia. They don't abide by our laws and rights. Our Constitution doesn't apply to other countries.

I thought this deserved a bump. Russia doesn't have to play by our rules.

While we are throwing "hypocrite" around, I'd like for someone to explain to me why it's ok for countries to have government-supported Islam (Iran, for example) or Judaism (Israel) but it's not OK for a country to have government-supported Christianity? Russia was the last Christian empire, the atheists had 70+ years to deconvert Russia, and they failed. Russians overwhelmingly want to be Christian, and they overwhelmingly want to be Orthodox. The tolerance they show toward other religions is remarkable compared to other countries that are overwhelmingly one religion. For example, Islam is allowed in Russia, but how is Christianity treated in Iran?

jameseb · Mar 28, 2004

Marissa said:
How about my next post then James? Where do we draw the line? There are many mainstream christian practises that non-christians consider damaging and abusive. Surely, we should outlaw those too?

What exactly do you mean, 'where do we draw the line?' I'm assuming 'we' is Australia, or perhaps America? We're talking about Russia... a free, democratic nation. Did you read the Russian courts reasons behind its ruling? The courts have the welfare of the Russian people in mind. This is how their democracy works. It is not for you or I to criticize or malign them for it. If the people do not support this, they are free to vote for politicians that would support their ideas. Obviously Russia isn't trying to make it just an Orthodox-only country or else they wouldn't allow for the Catholics, the Buddhist, Judaism, Baptist missionaries, etc. Their decision obviously isn't based on religious suppression, but from what they perceive as a threat to society. Frankly, I agree with them.

Also, I'm in that lot you referred to as 'hypocrites.' Please tell me what contradictory words I wrote that justify such a label. I was just getting to like ya so I hope you weren't really calling me a hypocrite.

lared · Mar 28, 2004

Jehovah's Witnesses were banned from Germany in the mid 1930's for not Heiling Hitler or being part of their military. Notice from the below article, who did support Hitler.

NEW YORK TIMES--9/25/1939

GERMAN SOLDIERS RALLIED BY CHURCHES

Protestant and Catholic Exhort to Reich Victory and Just Peace

FRANKFORT-ON-THE-MAIN, GERMANY, SEPT. 24

Periodicals of the German Protestant and Catholic Churches are now publishing many exhortive articles explaining the duties of soldiers fighting in the defense ot their country and admonishing the German soldiers to fight in the spirit of Saint Michael for a German victory and a just peace.

The archangel is shown, brandishing a battlesword and piercing a dragon with a holy lance on the front page of Catholic papers.

In the the western and southern German Catholic dioceses, the clergy headed by the Archbishop and Bishops, are actively engaged in work for the welfare of refugees evacuated from the western frontier districts. Many cloiseters have been transformed into hospitals and the monks and nuns are working under the direction of the Red Cross.

The Catholic Bishops of Germany have issued a pastoral letter stating:

"In this decisive hour we admonish our Catholic soldiers to do their duty in obedience to the Fuehrer and be ready to sacrifice their whole individuality.

"We appeal to the faithful to join in ardent prayers that the Divine Providence of God Almighty may lead this war to blessed success and peace for our fatherland and nation."

Each Bishop in addition has issued a special message to his own diocese including the Bishop of Rottenburg in Wuertiemberg, who was expelled from his diocese last year for refusing to vote in a National Socialist election.

Cardinal Archbishop Bertram, head of the German Episcopal Congregation, has similiarly issued a patriotic message to his flock urging that all "be strong in your heart, all you who confide in God Almighty."

***********

German Witnesses were either in the camps or underground but did not kill or wound their fellow man of other countries.

lared · Mar 28, 2004

It is suprising, at this late date, how uninformed some are as to the progress and benefits of bloodless surgery.

lared · Mar 28, 2004

God passed the death sentence upon his offspring for merely eating a piece of fruit. Should God have been banned?

Or could it be that one does not know the inside story?

Sergius_Lucius · Mar 29, 2004

lared said:
God passed the death sentence upon his offspring for merely eating a piece of fruit

And some people want to be like God and decide for others that they should die.

BBC said:
A Russian law from 1997 recognises only four traditional religions - Orthodoxy, Judaism, Buddhism and Islam.

That's wrong. The preamble of the Law on religious societies says only about "important role of Orthodoxy in the Russian history" and "respect to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and other religions of the nations of Russia" and nothing more -- no legal advantages for anybody.

One day someone will decide to prohibit artificial respiration...

Jehovah's Witnesses Banned In Moscow

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Smite me, O Mighty Smiter!

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Seriously, stop killing kids.

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