Jeffrey Dahmer's Confession

[Late_Cretaceous]

What the heck is biblical christianity? For 300 years christians did not even have a bible.

Anyways mhess, if that makes you feel more "christian" or somehow closer to God, then go ahead and say what you like.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Read it again, my OP asked :

Bottom line, can you not agree with my premise that belief in evolution can, in some cases, affect a person's worldview/mindset to the point that they would be capable, such as Dahmer was, to commit horrific acts because of their belief in no absolutes and therefore, no God to Whom we are held accountable for all our actions ??


I probably should have prefaced it to say "atheistic" evolution as i understand some professto be "theistic evolutionists" and therefore obviously believe God was the First Cause of the evolutionary process - God said it and the "Big Bang" occurred.

My question still stands and i do believe that IF one believes in no God and as a result believes in evolution without any deities involvement then one can then develop a mindset that because they believe they have no one to answer to, no absolutes to guide them, they can act, such as Dahmer did, without feeling remorse/guilt as a byproduct of accepting atheistic evolution AND if caught will still not admit to being evil but to being "insane" therefore only believing themselves to be sick (as Dahmer did till he became a Christian, at which time he not only confessed to being sick but being evil as well) !


Ray

Certainly so. But I think belief in God is the issue here, not evolution. Unfortunately though there are those who believe that God's will to murder and kill. Fortunately they constitute only the most miniscule fringe of our religion - but so do the atheists who think that they are answerable to no one.

 

[herev]

What if It was shown that Eric Rudolf was a creationist? Would that imply that it was his worldview of God as having created the world in 6 days that led to his bombing abortion clinics? I really am trying, but it is such a stretch, I can't quite get the leap in logic that is made here--sorry!

 

[Něco hrubého oprýskaného 1]

Read it again, my OP asked :

Bottom line, can you not agree with my premise that belief in evolution can, in some cases, affect a person's worldview/mindset to the point that they would be capable, such as Dahmer was, to commit horrific acts because of their belief in no absolutes and therefore, no God to Whom we are held accountable for all our actions ??


I probably should have prefaced it to say "atheistic" evolution as i understand some professto be "theistic evolutionists" and therefore obviously believe God was the First Cause of the evolutionary process - God said it and the "Big Bang" occurred.

My question still stands and i do believe that IF one believes in no God and as a result believes in evolution without any deities involvement then one can then develop a mindset that because they believe they have no one to answer to, no absolutes to guide them, they can act, such as Dahmer did, without feeling remorse/guilt as a byproduct of accepting atheistic evolution AND if caught will still not admit to being evil but to being "insane" therefore only believing themselves to be sick (as Dahmer did till he became a Christian, at which time he not only confessed to being sick but being evil as well) !


Ray

I tend to give people too much credit, but I have to say no...there has to be a lot more going on in an individual who's constantly driven to murder and mutilate people.

Evolution had nothing to do with Dahmer's criminal behavior anymore than a tree or a garbage can did. I think his grotesque sexual drives had more to do with it...kind of a lame explaination, but at least that would make SOME sort of sense.

Answer this for me please: Can Christianity cause or influence someone to murder people in cold blood? (Remember Harvey Carignan)

BTW: A belief in "no absolutes" constitutes a belief in an absolute. Apologetics 101. Anyway, everyone has their own individual morality to deal with...you wouldn't drop your kids off at someone's house for the night merely because they claim to be Christian...you want to know how they are as people first...their psychological makeup and personal morality.

Yes, ideology (worldview) can lead to evil, just not in the way you think.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0406/17/lkl.00.html

I just read this, and although the father does mention about ICR and Jeffrey not believing in God and therefore not accountable to anyone or anything, they say elsewhere that he was raised in a Christian home. I'm not sure that someone raised in a Christian home would feel God did not exist and use that as a justification for the things he did.

It also says that as a teenager he had a sexual fixation with dead animals, and that may be why he did what he did as an adult.

I personally think that the whole premise is made up by someone who thinks evolution equals atheism. Of course, one could argue that the claim of "evolution = atheism" is what made him do it, and it is the father's fault for making him think that way.

Ron

I don't recall on the show them mentioning anything about being raised in a Christian home. Besides, there are many "Christian" homes that are so only in name - it's called "dead religion"

You are right about the dead animal thing - he was into necrophilia.

And no, as the OP, i don't equate evolution equivically with atheism. Obviously there are some that label themselves "theistic evolutionists" however i (and many others) have grave reservations about such a position - one being it undermines the Word of God. People start to question "Did God really say/do as it says He did" - remember the serpent's first words to Eve "Did God REALLY say..." Seems to me the same sort of thing happens if one espouses "theistic" evolution rather than the literal account in Genesis.

That's my .02 Canadian


Ray

 

[Athanasian Creed]

{snip}
added on edit: evolution is not the result of mindless chance. It is directed by the environment, due to natural selection. You need to read up on what evolution really is (and not the mumbo jumbo from a creatioist website). Go up to the "all members evolution forum". They can explain it (although there are some here who can also) Ron

OK, chance and natural selection.

Is that better ??

Why do "you" people (evolutionists, theistic or otherwise) get so uptight - i've found 2-3 persons in my posting on this subject out of maybe 15 who showed any sort of civility - nothing but attacks on my mental capacities to foaming at the mouth about being a lunatic !! SHEESH !!!!


Ray

 

[mhess13]

[noflame]

 

[Dark_Lite]

They get so upset because their religion (evolution) is being threatened by the word of God.

You just continue living in your own little world and think that.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

[noflame]

 

[notto]

Is the only reason that you don't kill people and eat them because of your faith in God and Christ? Please answer honestly.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

You didn't answer my question.

I don't like blood & guts (as well as fingers, toes, arms & legs, etc.) - how's that !?

Because i am a Christian, know God exists and believe in a literal Creation - i'd be mighty foolish to murder someone made in His image/likeness as He said we are knowing i will have to answer to Him for my crime against that person and against Him !


Ray

 

[notto]

I don't like blood & guts (as well as fingers, toes, arms & legs, etc.) - how's that !?

Because i am a Christian, know God exists and believe in a literal Creation - i'd be mighty foolish to murder someone made in His image/likeness as He said we are knowing i will have to answer to Him for my crime against that person and against Him !


Ray

Nice dodge. You still didn't answer my question.

Because I am a Christian, know God exists and accept evolution - I'd be mighty foolish to murder someone made in His image/likeness . . .

I know plenty of people who don't believe in God, but none of them kill and eat people (whether they accept evolution or not).

 

[Ron21647]

OK, chance and natural selection.

Is that better ??

Why do "you" people (evolutionists, theistic or otherwise) get so uptight - i've found 2-3 persons in my posting on this subject out of maybe 15 who showed any sort of civility - nothing but attacks on my mental capacities to foaming at the mouth about being a lunatic !! SHEESH !!!!


Ray

You and Mhess13 are practically accusing me of worhipping Satan, and you think I am presecuting you???

I'm not attacking your menatal capabilities, but if the only thing you know about evolution is what you read on the creationist websites, then you know noting at all about it and are not qualified to criticize it.

As far as evolution being a religion, it is not. see my signature for my religious beliefs. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/metaphysics.html

Ron

 

[Ron21647]

I don't recall on the show them mentioning anything about being raised in a Christian home. Besides, there are many "Christian" homes that are so only in name - it's called "dead religion"

<snip>



Ray

A quote from midway throiugh the interview:

KING: You then knew he was homosexual?

S. DAHMER: Yes. Oh, yes.

KING: And you knew it. How did you handle that?

S. DAHMER: Not well.

L. DAHMER: Not very well. I'm a believer in absolute truth. I think people that don't believe in absolute truth may be prone to be more liberal with error. And I believe that the Bible teaches that that is something that you should avoid. Just like too much food, too much drink, too much of anything. And I took it as something to be conquered, I felt. So I took him to a psychiatrist. And really it was for mostly, at that point, the drinking and the...

and a few lines down, Larry King quoting Lionel Dahmer's book:

And you wrote, "In the eyes of parents I think children always seem just a blink away from redemption. No matter to what depths we watch them sink, we believe they need only grasp the lifeline and we can pull them safely to shore."

and then near the end of the interview:

KING: How was he dealing with prison, Jeff?

L. DAHMER: Jeff -- he -- at first it was extremely hard, but then he -- he sent away for 13 books. It's down in Alcahone (ph), California, Institute for Creation Research. I told him about the place. And he bought 13 books that turned him from a -- an evolutionist into a creationist and from there into a Christian.

And he started handing out and talking, handing out pamphlets and so forth and talking with other prisoners, trying to...

KING: So he was a born again?

L. DAHMER: He was -- he was -- I'm sure, in talking with him, it wasn't just a jailhouse conversion. I really believe that.

So, I believe that the parents are probably Christian's now, and since I see no indication of "if only we were Christians when he was a child, this might not have happened", I believe the parents were then too.

But you may have a point, they may not have emphasized it sufficiently when he was growing up.

Ron

 

[Athanasian Creed]

You and Mhess13 are practically accusing me of worhipping Satan, and you think I am presecuting you???

I'm not attacking your menatal capabilities, but if the only thing you know about evolution is what you read on the creationist websites, then you know noting at all about it and are not qualified to criticize it.

As far as evolution being a religion, it is not. see my signature for my religious beliefs. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/metaphysics.html

Ron

You are right about not knowing as much as others about evolution compared to some on the board - that is an understatement.

However, in regards to "theistic evolutionists" i go back to an earlier post of mine:

Obviously there are some that label themselves "theistic evolutionists" however i (and many others) have grave reservations about such a position - one being it undermines the Word of God. People start to question "Did God really say/do as it says He did" - remember the serpent's first words to Eve "Did God REALLY say..." Seems to me the same sort of thing happens if one espouses "theistic" evolution rather than the literal account in Genesis.

That is my stance and God forbid i should cast ANY doubt about the Word of God towards anyone - i would really fear God's wrath (and rightly so) if i added/took away from what His Word says. And forget the "jazz" about worshipping the Book, i worship the God of the Book. However, keep in mind this -

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Do we exalt His Name, do we glory in His Name ?? Yes. But God has said HE has exalted His Word above His Name !!

We have lost the reverence for God's Word - It says what it says and i believe those who are lead by the Spirit will understand it's teachings/precepts and will not change it to make it more appeasing to nonbelievers or to make it more "revelant" to "modern society"

I am a believer in the LITERAL account of Creation as outlined in Genesis - when it says "in the beginning GOD CREATED..." that's what i believe and NO i do not believe He did so using evolution.


Ray

 

[Dark_Lite]

Obviously there are some that label themselves "theistic evolutionists" however i (and many others) have grave reservations about such a position - one being it undermines the Word of God.

But you see, it doesn't.

 

[Ron21647]

You are right about not knowing as much as others about evolution compared to some on the board - that is an understatement.

However, in regards to "theistic evolutionists" i go back to an earlier post of mine:

Obviously there are some that label themselves "theistic evolutionists" however i (and many others) have grave reservations about such a position - one being it undermines the Word of God. People start to question "Did God really say/do as it says He did" - remember the serpent's first words to Eve "Did God REALLY say..." Seems to me the same sort of thing happens if one espouses "theistic" evolution rather than the literal account in Genesis.

That is my stance and God forbid i should cast ANY doubt about the Word of God towards anyone - i would really fear God's wrath (and rightly so) if i added/took away from what His Word says. And forget the "jazz" about worshipping the Book, i worship the God of the Book. However, keep in mind this -

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Do we exalt His Name, do we glory in His Name ?? Yes. But God has said HE has exalted His Word above His Name !!

We have lost the reverence for God's Word - It says what it says and i believe those who are lead by the Spirit will understand it's teachings/precepts and will not change it to make it more appeasing to nonbelievers or to make it more "revelant" to "modern society"

I am a believer in the LITERAL account of Creation as outlined in Genesis - when it says "in the beginning GOD CREATED..." that's what i believe and NO i do not believe He did so using evolution.


Ray

Well, I believe that "in the beginning God created" as well, but I believe it happened 13.7 billion years ago.

The evidence for an old earth, an even older universe, and the common descent of all life, is just too strong for me to believe that it happened in 6 days 6000 years ago. Of course, God could have done it then, in the method of your interpretation, and just made it look old. I don't kow why He would want to do that, but in that case it is the job of science to understand the details of how it looks.

As far as one portion of the Bible being interpreted non-literally causing the rest of the Bible to be not true, that isn't valid and you know that. (Or at least you should). Read the post further down the page about St Augustine.

Ron

 

[herev]

You are right about not knowing as much as others about evolution compared to some on the board - that is an understatement.

However, in regards to "theistic evolutionists" i go back to an earlier post of mine:

Obviously there are some that label themselves "theistic evolutionists" however i (and many others) have grave reservations about such a position - one being it undermines the Word of God. People start to question "Did God really say/do as it says He did" - remember the serpent's first words to Eve "Did God REALLY say..." Seems to me the same sort of thing happens if one espouses "theistic" evolution rather than the literal account in Genesis.

That is my stance and God forbid i should cast ANY doubt about the Word of God towards anyone - i would really fear God's wrath (and rightly so) if i added/took away from what His Word says. And forget the "jazz" about worshipping the Book, i worship the God of the Book. However, keep in mind this -

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Do we exalt His Name, do we glory in His Name ?? Yes. But God has said HE has exalted His Word above His Name !!

We have lost the reverence for God's Word - It says what it says and i believe those who are lead by the Spirit will understand it's teachings/precepts and will not change it to make it more appeasing to nonbelievers or to make it more "revelant" to "modern society"

I am a believer in the LITERAL account of Creation as outlined in Genesis - when it says "in the beginning GOD CREATED..." that's what i believe and NO i do not believe He did so using evolution.


Ray

Athanasian Creed, I applaud you for your literal interpretation and your considered efforts to promote the cause. I only ask that you recognize that I can believe differently than you and STILL believe that the Bible is the Word of God. While you and probably both agree that when Psalms says God has wings, it is not to be taken literally--and we probably both agree that to believe it is only metaphorical does not lesson the other parts of the Bible's truth--we do not both agree that the Genesis account is or ever was intented to be taken as literal.
To see Jesus is to see God, right? Jesus taught in parables, did he not? Why is it so difficult for you to accept that others may see the creation accounts as God's parables to us. They may not be factual, just as the verses in Psalms above are not factual, but they both contain truth. I promise I am not trying to pursuade you to convert to theistic evolution, but can we not agree that as long as we see God's truth, even in the absence of the agreement on facts, in the Creation accounts, that we are not so far apart? Can it be ok that I believe that and not label me as one who attacks or weakens the Word of God in so believing?
Yes, the book says what it says, and I, too believe it--but we all take parts to be non-literal, why is it that we must agree on this one part to be together in our faith?
Sincerely,
Tommy

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Well, I believe that "in the beginning God created" as well, but I believe it happened 13.7 billion years ago.

The evidence for an old earth, an even older universe, and the common descent of all life, is just too strong for me to believe that it happened in 6 days 6000 years ago. Of course, God could have done it then, in the method of your interpretation, and just made it look old. I don't kow why He would want to do that, but in that case it is the job of science to understand the details of how it looks.

As far as one portion of the Bible being interpreted non-literally causing the rest of the Bible to be not true, that isn't valid and you know that. (Or at least you should). Read the post further down the page about St Augustine.

Ron

OK, considering the possibility of an old earth since there could be a gap between Genesis 1:1 & 1:3 and onward. Vs. 2 says the earth was without form & void. Further down it does mention the actual creation of "lights" (sun, moon, stars) but it says nothing of other planets within our galaxy and beyond created on a certain day of the Creation week so i could see where one could Biblically believe the earth and universe (less the "lights") where created 13.7 billion years ago.

However, when you mention "common descent of ALL life" that is where Biblically i have a problem. The Bible is quite specific that God created specific life forms/kinds on specific days and that these life forms where distinct kinds. And that God created man from the dust of the earth as a special creation (He formed him rather than spoke him into existence like he did all other things) and that woman was created again as a special creation from Adam's rib.

Biblically the problem comes when you say one kind evolved into another higher kind and that from a common ancestor man evolved. That then throws Genesis 1 basically out the door, not to be taken literally as it is outlined. And then for a new Christian, they would then begin to doubt God's Word as to what is to be taken literally and what isn't - i'm not a young Christian and i believe very much that Genesis 1 IS literal because specifics like "morning and evening" are mentioned 6 times and the Hebrew word used for day denotes a literal day (from the rising of the sun to sunset)

As i said, if one wants to classify themselves an OEC that's fine - Biblically i could live with that but to classify yourself a "theistic evolutionist" i think there are problems.



Ray

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Athanasian Creed, I applaud you for your literal interpretation and your considered efforts to promote the cause. I only ask that you recognize that I can believe differently than you and STILL believe that the Bible is the Word of God. While you and probably both agree that when Psalms says God has wings, it is not to be taken literally--and we probably both agree that to believe it is only metaphorical does not lesson the other parts of the Bible's truth--we do not both agree that the Genesis account is or ever was intented to be taken as literal.
To see Jesus is to see God, right? Jesus taught in parables, did he not? Why is it so difficult for you to accept that others may see the creation accounts as God's parables to us. They may not be factual, just as the verses in Psalms above are not factual, but they both contain truth. I promise I am not trying to pursuade you to convert to theistic evolution, but can we not agree that as long as we see God's truth, even in the absence of the agreement on facts, in the Creation accounts, that we are not so far apart? Can it be ok that I believe that and not label me as one who attacks or weakens the Word of God in so believing?
Yes, the book says what it says, and I, too believe it--but we all take parts to be non-literal, why is it that we must agree on this one part to be together in our faith?
Sincerely,
Tommy

Thanks Tommy for your kindness. I appreciate it sincerely !

I think my post quoting Ron will answer some of my concerns about Biblical understanding. I agree totally that some things in the Bible are not to be taken literally - the one you mention about God and wings a very good one - since Scripture clearly says elsewhere that God is Spirit.

However, i do believe, as i said in the post to Ron that i do believe Genesis 1 is literal. And if it is not to be taken literally, why not ?? Because "science" said so ??

The problem comes when we choose to decide by whatever way/whatever reason that this passage of Scripture (and others) is no longer literal when for 100's of years it was and Christians were united in their belief that it was literal. What about all the scientists in past centuries, be they deists/theists/Christian who were Creationists and their scientific research did nothing but strengthen their belief in a literal 6-day Creation ??

The various camps regarding origins of life in the Christian community can only serve as a stumblingblock to new Christians just discovering the truths of God's Word. To be perfectly frank, i'm VERY suprised at the number of "theistic evolutionists" who are Christians especially among Evangelicals - a real eye opener to say the least !


Ray