JDS, What Does It Mean?

[importunity]

Here is a video of Kenneth Copeland saying about Jesus, "He was the first man to ever be born again from sin, sickness, demons, death to life."

Kenneth Copeland - Jesus was born again!!?? - Today's Christian Videos

I didn't watch the video but if someone is looking at it from the pont of view that being born again is going from death to life; Jesus died and rose again. The Bibe says that He was made sin. The sin He took to the grave, and sin causes death (separation not ceasing to exist). So let's say there was a separation (death) upon resurrecting He left sin behind in the grave. So by just simple reasoning you can say He was born again, or raised to this newness of life. But I didn't watch the video so I am only assuming that's what he believes.

 

[Tallen]

I didn't watch the video but if someone is looking at it from the pont of view that being born again is going from death to life; Jesus died and rose again. The Bibe says that He was made sin. The sin He took to the grave, and sin causes death (separation not ceasing to exist). So let's say there was a separation (death) upon resurrecting He left sin behind in the grave. So by just simple reasoning you can say He was born again, or raised to this newness of life. But I didn't watch the video so I am only assuming that's what he believes.

This is what I am talking about db, the JDS leads into even greater error. If one has YHWH separated from YHWH, then one needs to get that nature back together in some way. So a Jesus that is dead spiritually, now has to be brought back from death, and to do this He needs to be born again. Except no one stops to think that we are talking about Life. Also note that scripture never said Yahshua took sin to the grave, or that He was born again. He is the One that paid the price for our redemption, and this was done on the cross by His shed blood. There is no logical reason that YHWH would separate Himself from Himself in order that He could simultaneously be spiritually dead and the Spirit of Life.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6, KJV)

 

[importunity]

This is what I am talking about db, the JDS leads into even greater error. If one has YHWH separated from YHWH, then one needs to get that nature back together in some way. So a Jesus that is dead spiritually, now has to be brought back from death, and to do this He needs to be born again. Except no one stops to think that we are talking about Life. Also note that scripture never said Yahshua took sin to the grave, or that He was born again. He is the One that paid the price for our redemption, and this was done on the cross by His shed blood. There is no logical reason that YHWH would separate Himself from Himself in order that He could simultaneously be spiritually dead and the Spirit of Life.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6, KJV)

Now concerning our logic verses scripture, His ways and thoughts are higher and He chooses to use foolish things to confound the wise. I'm not saying we can't use any logic I'm just referring to the light of the scripture.

If Jesus was not separated somehow let's say, He would not have asked why the Father has FORSAKEN Him.
g1459. ἐγκαταλείπω egkataleipō; from 1722 and 2641 ; to leave behind in some
place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert: — forsake,
leave. AV (9) - forsake 7, leave 2;
I.abandon, desert
A.leave in straits, leave helpless
B.totally abandoned, utterly forsaken
II.to leave behind among, to leave surviving

How can you leave someone or thing you are absolutely one with?
These are good questions, but the Bible teaches it non the less.

Think about it Jesus was saying (and He wasn't lying) my God My God:
How could you leave me helpless
How could you desert me
How could you totally abandon me

I don't logically get it, but it happened

Another thought to consider is:
If Jesus were on the earth and not separated from His divine powers, He would know when His return was going to be. It wouldn't be something the Father would keep from Him they are one.

So I understand where you are coming from. There's just a lot more out there to consider.

 

[dollarsbill]

Spiritual death comes by committing sin.

Luke 15:24 (NASB)
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

1 Timothy 5:6 (NASB)
6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

 

[importunity]

Spiritual death comes by committing sin.

Luke 15:24 (NASB)
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

1 Timothy 5:6 (NASB)
6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

This is a translation you referred to earlier.

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NLT)

The Marginal Notes say in this translation:
To be the offering of sin means or to become sin itself.

 

[importunity]

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[dollarsbill]

This is a translation you referred to earlier.

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NLT)

The Marginal Notes say in this translation:
To be the offering of sin means or to become sin itself.

Sin is a moral issue. Jesus became a moral issue? 'Sin offering' clarifies very well.

John 1:29 (NASB)
29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[importunity]

Sin is a moral issue. Jesus became a moral issue? 'Sin offering' clarifies very well.


He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NASB)

 

[importunity]

To become sin itself

 

[importunity]

How did He make Him to become sin itself you ask? That's a great question! I'm not God, I don't know? But He said He did, and I believe He did what He said He did; for me end of story.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Acts 13:33 says: he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.' This is a quote from Psalm 2:7.

This is the Scripture that supports the idea that Jesus was born again. When Jesus was incarnated, He voluntarily laid aside His position as the Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity. He became a real human being, totally dependent on the Holy Spirit. When He died on the Cross, He died as an ordinary person. Where He went after that, we are not sure. The Bible is obscure about it. If we were really meant to know, the Bible account would have been much clearer. Maybe the people who Peter wrote to when he told them that Jesus went to preach to the souls in prison knew what he meant, but that seems lost to us now, 2000 years later.

As for Jesus dying spiritually, the Bible is not clear, therefore it may be one of those things we are not meant to meddle with. My view of dying spiritually is the Second Death which is going to happen when the devil and all who follow him are thrown into the lake of fire. This did not happen to Jesus. His spirit was separated from His body when He died.

When He was raised from the dead, His spirit was reunited to a resurrection body. It was at this point where God became His Father again. This is what Acts 13:33 is talking about. It is not talking about anything that took place in the eternity before the foundation of the world, because the Son of God was always there along with the Father and the Holy Spirit for eternity past. There was no "begetting" of the Son of God in eternity past. The "begetting" is a description of the resurrection and ascension of Christ. When Christ ascended to the Father and presented His blood in the heavenly holy of holies, He was restored to His Sonship and given authorty over all the kingdom of God until the Second Coming when He will give the kingdom back to the Father.

So, it is true, in a sense, that Jesus was born again at His resurrection and ascension. This is why Paul says that we do not know Christ after the flesh any more (flesh = a worldly point of view). He is no longer the human Jesus who walked the earth during His ministry. He is now the ascended Christ, seated at the right hand of the Father, ever interceding for us.

 

[dollarsbill]

This is the Scripture that supports the idea that Jesus was born again.

From sin?

 

[importunity]

Acts 13:33 says: he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.' This is a quote from Psalm 2:7.

This is the Scripture that supports the idea that Jesus was born again. When Jesus was incarnated, He voluntarily laid aside His position as the Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity. He became a real human being, totally dependent on the Holy Spirit. When He died on the Cross, He died as an ordinary person. Where He went after that, we are not sure. The Bible is obscure about it. If we were really meant to know, the Bible account would have been much clearer. Maybe the people who Peter wrote to when he told them that Jesus went to preach to the souls in prison knew what he meant, but that seems lost to us now, 2000 years later.

As for Jesus dying spiritually, the Bible is not clear, therefore it may be one of those things we are not meant to meddle with. My view of dying spiritually is the Second Death which is going to happen when the devil and all who follow him are thrown into the lake of fire. This did not happen to Jesus. His spirit was separated from His body when He died.

When He was raised from the dead, His spirit was reunited to a resurrection body. It was at this point where God became His Father again. This is what Acts 13:33 is talking about. It is not talking about anything that took place in the eternity before the foundation of the world, because the Son of God was always there along with the Father and the Holy Spirit for eternity past. There was no "begetting" of the Son of God in eternity past. The "begetting" is a description of the resurrection and ascension of Christ. When Christ ascended to the Father and presented His blood in the heavenly holy of holies, He was restored to His Sonship and given authorty over all the kingdom of God until the Second Coming when He will give the kingdom back to the Father.

So, it is true, in a sense, that Jesus was born again at His resurrection and ascension. This is why Paul says that we do not know Christ after the flesh any more (flesh = a worldly point of view). He is no longer the human Jesus who walked the earth during His ministry. He is now the ascended Christ, seated at the right hand of the Father, ever interceding for us.

Very good word, I appreciate your study, honesty and openness.

 

[Tallen]

If Jesus was not separated somehow let's say, He would not have asked why the Father has FORSAKEN Him.

This is what I am talking about. Why do you assume that FORSAKEN means spiritual death? I would suggest you read Psalms 22 to learn what the meaning of forsaken is. The humanity of the Messiah was put upon the cross and He bore the penalty of sin, on the cross. He alone, is the Passover Lamb, whose physical death and shed blood is what covers sin. While He was there, He was forsaken to endure that punishment. Meaning, all had forsaken Him, and He was alone (forsaken) in this endeavor.
This is why He said:

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. (Matthew 26:42, KJV)

The cup that He was about to partake of was the cross.


To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying], He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly. Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help. Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations. All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done [this]. (Psalms 22:1-31, KJV)

 

[pdudgeon]

This is what I am talking about. Why do you assume that FORSAKEN means spiritual death? I would suggest you read Psalms 22 to learn what the meaning of forsaken is. The humanity of the Messiah was put upon the cross and He bore the penalty of sin, on the cross. He alone, is the Passover Lamb, whose physical death and shed blood is what covers sin. While He was there, He was forsaken to endure that punishment. Meaning, all had forsaken Him, and He was alone (forsaken) in this endeavor.
This is why He said:

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. (Matthew 26:42, KJV)

The cup that He was about to partake of was the cross.

a couple of things here:
1.

He alone, is the Passover Lamb, whose physical death and shed blood is what covers sin.

but if His physical death and shed blood only covers sin, then it is no more effective than the first skins that God gave Adam and Eve. Sin that is fully attoned for is not only paid for in blood, but is also wiped clean from God's books, is forgotten, is removed as far as the East is from the West, and is remembered no more.
that is what the Lamb of God achieved for us.

but if He had only been forsaken by men, (as acknowledged in Psalms 22) then why is it that He cried out and addressed God and the Holy Spirit? if They too had not forsaken Him at that moment, would He who had always known and acted with Them have ever accused Them of doing so?
never in the whole of history until that moment had the trinity not been together and acted together as one.

 

[Faulty]

The key is in the following verse...

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We understand the second part of that verse, in that when we become the righteousness of God, we are declared so legally, justified before God, and treated as such, but we do not lose our nature and stop all sinning.

This is contrasted to the first part of the verse, Jesus was made sin, as we are made righteous. He was declared so legally, and treated as such, but He never lost His nature and sinned. He remained the spotless Lamb of God.

 

[Tallen]

Exactly.

 

[dollarsbill]

Then why are some saying that He had to be born again from sin???

 

[Tallen]

but if His physical death and shed blood only covers sin, then it is no more effective than the first skins that God gave Adam and Eve. Sin that is fully attoned for is not only paid for in blood, but is also wiped clean from God's books, is forgotten, is removed as far as the East is from the West, and is remembered no more.
that is what the Lamb of God achieved for us.

That is what "covers" means in this context, that your trespasses were atoned for.

but if He had only been forsaken by men, (as acknowledged in Psalms 22) then why is it that He cried out and addressed God and the Holy Spirit?

Because He alone is the Human being that is upon the cross, as a person who is righteous and holy. The forsaken-ness, isn't that God has caused Him to die spiritually, the forsaken-ness is that He is the one bearing the penalty. Read Psalms 22, which is a Messianic Psalm about this and the Psalm He is fulfilling. Look at verse 24.

For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. (Psalms 22:24, KJV)

YHWH didn't forsake Him in the sense that JDS teaches, but heard Him and did not despise or abhor His affliction.

Also, I didn't day He was only forsaken by men. I said that He did not die spiritually, as is being read into the text. You are assuming that forsaken is dying spiritually, which it is not. It is speaking to the loneliness and work of the Messiah, who alone is bearing the penalty for atonement.

if They too had not forsaken Him at that moment, would He who had always known and acted with Them have ever accused Them of doing so?

Not sure what you are asking. He already had told them they would scatter and leave the Shepherd, if that is what you are getting at.

never in the whole of history until that moment had the trinity not been together and acted together as one.

This is what I mean, to make this statement one has terribly misunderstood the nature of YHWH. There is one YHWH, not three. YHWH can not be divided and broken into three, that is impossible. He changes not, as the scripture clearly tells us. The only thing that is not eternal is the humanity that He took in the incarnation, and that was what was needed to make atonement for His people. The Eternal Spirit can not be separated from YHWH.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: (Deuteronomy 6:4, KJV)

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:14, KJV)

 

[Tallen]

Then why are some saying that He had to be born again from sin???

Because they killed Him spiritually, making Him no more than a fallen human being separated from His own divine nature and in need of the new birth.

Silly isn't it.