James

[Hortysir]

I'm just starting to learn about James, so i figured I'd ask you guys and gals what your thoughts on this man and his role in the early Church.

LYMI

 

[Snowbunny]

hola

from my perspective (and only mine) i consider James, the Just brother of our Lord to be one of the most influencial patriarchs of the Church... probably the most influencial.

if you begin to talk to non Christians there are some (muslims especially) who believe that St. Paul corrupted Christianity and drew it away from judaism... this is based upon a misunderstanding of traditional jewish law and a misunderstanding of the characters involved at the council of jerusalem (from which we gained the didache).

st. paul argued that the gentile christians need not be circumcised or follow the 613 jewish mitzvot... st peter argued that they had to... st. James the Just decided, as the authority, that the gentile converts did not need to since they were not part of the jewish covenant.

this was extremely ahead of its time in jewish and christian thinking... today jews consider this a natural presumption... since gentiles are not jews they do not need to follow their covenant, but instead must follow the (less restrictive, but more general) rules of the noahide covenant between God and all humanity. this was, in effect, James' ruling... almost 1200 years before maimonides... such was James' knowledge of the law.

he was a wise, compassionate and understanding father of the Church... worthy of being the (adoptive) brother of our Lord. alongside our beloved St. Peter, first of the roman patriarchs and our beloved St. Paul, apostle to the gentiles, i think St. James the Just is a pillar of our Church and a brother of our Lord.

*he's also on my list of people to whom i must introduce myself if i ever see heaven *

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Hortysir]

That's just about exactly what I've learned so far, SnowBunny.
Which is why I posed the question in this forum.
I thought Catholics were of the belief that Paul was the leader.

 

[Snowbunny]

That's just about exactly what I've learned so far, SnowBunny.
Which is why I posed the question in this forum.
I thought Catholics were of the belief that Paul was the leader.

hola,

no, St. Peter was the leader of the Church... and the chair of St. Peter will always be the head of the Church. St. Paul was a great, great, great apostle, what God accomplished through him was incredible... especially considering how wretched a man he was in the beginning... God can do anything... but he was not the leader. i think it is clear from the Council of Jerusalem that our beloved St. Peter rightly submitted the question to the *entire council* and went even so far as to defer his opinion to St. James who he esteemed as the most just and knowledgeable. the endorsement of St. Peter is yet another example of why St. James was such an amazing person...

i think it is also a brilliant refutation of the orthodox insistance that our holy fathers' demand their rightful place as princes of the apostolic successors merely out of a desire for power. much to the contrary they do so because it is what Jesus intended... and they have traditionally demonstrated great acumen in how to judiciously use this position, it is not taken lightly at all. leadership is not always about keeping all the decisions to ones self, sometimes it is about stepping aside to let a person more qualified decide.

you cannot go wrong trying to emulate the life of the beloved saint James, not at all... there are few people in the world like him. sadly he does not command the same attention that many others do historically... all of the disciples were the greatest of men... almost beyond comprehension, especially when one considers that they were just normal people...

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Catholic Christian]

I'm just starting to learn about James, so i figured I'd ask you guys and gals what your thoughts on this man and his role in the early Church.

LYMI

Well, I do not know much about the man, but I know his epistle provides balance in the whole justification issue:

James 2:20-24: You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

[Rhamiel]

James was the patriarch of Jerusalem, he was over all the Bishops of Israel, St. Mark was the patriarch of Alexandria, the Bishop of Alexandria was over the the Bishops of Egypt, the Bishop of Antioch was over the other Greek and Syrian Bishops and the Bishop of Rome was over the other Bishops in the Roman Empire and the first among equals

 

[Catholic Christian]

James was the patriarch of Jerusalem, he was over all the Bishops of Israel, St. Mark was the patriarch of Alexandria, the Bishop of Alexandria was over the the Bishops of Egypt, the Bishop of Antioch was over the other Greek and Syrian Bishops and the Bishop of Rome was over the other Bishops in the Roman Empire and the first among equals

Well, that sums that up.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Actually Horty.... Read St Chrysostom....to get a real understanding of the Apostles.

www.newadvent.org/fathers

Reading the early fathers really helps us understand what the Apostles meant and did...and you will be like...
"oh....i didnt know that.'

Trust me...trying to read scriptures alone is counter productive and what we think they mean is really off track.

How are ya???
I heard about Jerry...and and Tiger....how very very sad.


LYMI...

 

[Hortysir]

James was the patriarch of Jerusalem, he was over all the Bishops of Israel, St. Mark was the patriarch of Alexandria, the Bishop of Alexandria was over the the Bishops of Egypt, the Bishop of Antioch was over the other Greek and Syrian Bishops and the Bishop of Rome was over the other Bishops in the Roman Empire and the first among equals

So what was Peter "in charge" of?
I mean James was over all the Bishops of Israel---which, to me, is the center of Christianity as we know it.
That's like saying Florida's Governor is the leader of our country...

 

[Rhamiel]

I like the idea of comparing them to governors of states, might be a better way for us to understand the issue.
These apostles started Churches in differant areas, and some of these places grew to be more important then other places, but St.Peter was the "First among equals" All of the apostles were leaders of the Church, but deferance was shown towards Peter, not because of where he was sent, but because he was picked by Jesus to be the first among the apostles

 

[RicFlair]

hola

from my perspective (and only mine) i consider James, the Just brother of our Lord to be one of the most influencial patriarchs of the Church... probably the most influencial.

if you begin to talk to non Christians there are some (muslims especially) who believe that St. Paul corrupted Christianity and drew it away from judaism... this is based upon a misunderstanding of traditional jewish law and a misunderstanding of the characters involved at the council of jerusalem (from which we gained the didache).

st. paul argued that the gentile christians need not be circumcised or follow the 613 jewish mitzvot... st peter argued that they had to... st. James the Just decided, as the authority, that the gentile converts did not need to since they were not part of the jewish covenant.

this was extremely ahead of its time in jewish and christian thinking... today jews consider this a natural presumption... since gentiles are not jews they do not need to follow their covenant, but instead must follow the (less restrictive, but more general) rules of the noahide covenant between God and all humanity. this was, in effect, James' ruling... almost 1200 years before maimonides... such was James' knowledge of the law.

he was a wise, compassionate and understanding father of the Church... worthy of being the (adoptive) brother of our Lord. alongside our beloved St. Peter, first of the roman patriarchs and our beloved St. Paul, apostle to the gentiles, i think St. James the Just is a pillar of our Church and a brother of our Lord.

*he's also on my list of people to whom i must introduce myself if i ever see heaven *

que Dios te bendiga

if the authority was given to Peter why was it James that made the decision and not peter?

im a little confused

 

[Hortysir]

ok.....
But Antioch, or Rome was considered 'more important' than Israel/Jerusalem ????

 

[Hortysir]

if the authority was given to Peter why was it James that made the decision and not peter?

im a little confused

Hence the reason for my thread...

 

[WarriorAngel]

So what was Peter "in charge" of?
I mean James was over all the Bishops of Israel---which, to me, is the center of Christianity as we know it.
That's like saying Florida's Governor is the leader of our country...

Peter was the rock the Church was built on.
Peter was the one who received the revelation thru the Father.
Peter was given a seperate authority from the others when he stood alone in Christ telling him that whatsoever YOU hold bound shall be held bound in Heaven [and loosed etc]
Peter had been handed the key. Giving him authority over the others who would symbolically hold a key as well. [Being Bishops and Apostles]
Peter was told 3 times to feed His sheep, and lambs, which signifies that Peter would be shepherding His flock in Jesus' absense.
Jesus told Peter to confirm the others when he was 'converted'. IE, to teahc them and strengthen them.

Early writings show us that it was the successors to Peter who were in charge, and not an area, but the man who sat on the Chrair of Peter [those who succeeded him].

Jesus never said 'IN this land i set up a Church'
No He set it on the man He named Rock.

 

[Hortysir]

I just think James has been treated like 2nd-rate.
We've had the 'this Rock' discussion before, so that reason alone doesn't convince me.
And if they all had 'symbolic' keys, who's to say whose was greater???
and, hey, WA.....missed ya!!!!

 

[WarriorAngel]

if the authority was given to Peter why was it James that made the decision and not peter?

im a little confused

Why was Paul testifying? It is not by who spoke, but the content of what was said.

Peter opened the council, and all conceded to his speaking.
He said:
Acts 15
Men, brethren, you know, that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe..

Ok, we all know Peter by God was made choice among them, and that Paul was actually the one teaching the gentiles....
This shows us that in this discourse Peter took the God given authority over them all when saying the above.
Since Peter was actually converting the Jews.
BY HIS MOUTH means he was the leader.

James closed the council meeting in such a way as to bring Peter up as the Leader...
Hence he said:

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying: Men, brethren, hear me. 14 Simon hath related how God first visited to take of the Gentiles a people to his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written:


~~~~~~

22 Then it pleased the apostles and ancients, with the whole church, to choose men of their own company, and to send to Antioch, with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas, who was surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren.

AND as this shows us, it was thru the Ancient writings [which James disclosed] and the agreement of the Apostles that they would choose men to go to Antioch...since they in combo were chief [Bishops] among the brethren.

I hope this helps.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I just think James has been treated like 2nd-rate.
We've had the 'this Rock' discussion before, so that reason alone doesn't convince me.
And if they all had 'symbolic' keys, who's to say whose was greater???
and, hey, WA.....missed ya!!!!

Why does James get 2nd rate?
He was obedient to Christ. I should think he felt nothing regarding not being choosen since Christ admonished them about wanting that.

Didnt Jesus say to them when they quarreled over this..
'The first shall be last - and the last shall be first'

I believe James was not only obedient to the choice the Father in Heaven made by giving Peter the revelation, but by the authority set up by Christ.

The Apostles didnt quarrel again over who was the first - did they?

Peter humbled himself all the more knowing that in fact, being first he should be last.

It works out perfectly in the spirit of the whole context.

Hey HON - ya know i miss you like mad.
Praying my heart out.
Hope to see in here more.

 

[Hortysir]

I just meant history has treated James as 2nd rate.....


LYMI

 

[WarriorAngel]

I just meant history has treated James as 2nd rate.....


LYMI

No, it really hasn't.
James is revered by both East and West.
He was a highly esteemed Apostle [and cousin] of Christ.
He was a faithful and blessed Bishop of Jerusalum and he is revered as a martyr for the Lord.
His Epistles are included in canon and there are wonderful icons of him.

St James, as are all the Saints, are my favorite peeps.

LYMI- 100 x's.

 

[MikeK]

James? I think this sums it up:

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol-KrTTta4g&feature=related