James.

[jesusmysaviour76]

God has recently lead me to study the book of James, and I came across a passage tonight that has me totally stumped. So I thought I would ask your opinons.

James 1:9-11

"The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high positioin. But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; it's blossom falls and it's beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business"

Ok now what has me confused is I have heard preachers such as Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyers preach about how God wants us to be financially successful, and I know that if God makes us rich then I don't imagine He would take us out like that because the gift is from Him. But what I'm wondering are these people rich from God or not? Will God really bless us by making us financially rich or is this their deceived ways coming out in their preaching?

 

[Maccie]

Maybe this translation from the Contemporary English Version might make it a little clearer:

9Any of God's people who are poor should be glad that he thinks so highly of them. 10But any who are rich should be glad when God makes them humble. Rich people will disappear like wild flowers 11scorched by the burning heat of the sun. The flowers lose their blossoms, and their beauty is destroyed. That is how the rich will disappear, as they go about their business.

Of course, we can, any of us, die while we are "going about our business". If our business is just making money, then we are, when we die, just as poor as anyone else.

My sister has a saying "no pockets in a shroud" !

 

[Nazaroo]

Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyers preach about how God wants us to be financially successful, and I know that if God makes us rich then I don't imagine He would take us out like that because the gift is from Him. But what I'm wondering are these people rich from God or not? Will God really bless us by making us financially rich or is this their deceived ways coming out in their preaching?

In fact there are some subtle points to make here:

(1) God does NOT want us to be 'financially successful' in the worldly sense.

By that term, most people understand that their worldly business prospers, and that they have plenty of money or resources - more than they need.

While this state may be 'comfortable' for those whose beliefs are misaligned and trust in wealth, obviously this is not a healthy spiritual or mental state to be in. Mature Christians should be comfortable and non-stressed in times of poverty, which need to be interpreted as growth and training not to be dependant upon unreliable worldly wealth, or have wrong-headed goals.

While this state may be 'pleasurable' for those derive pleasure from 'ego-boosts' and worldly respect and fame, obviously again this is an unhealthy spiritual and mental state, and quite immature. Holy Scripture consistently teaches that the advanced spiritual state is one of humility and emptying of self in service to others through returning the love God has granted to us.

Again mature Christians should derive no 'pride' or pleasure in being 'rich'. It is NOT a sign of God's approval. All states of worldly 'wealth' are temporary, and even when granted or allowed by God are merely part of a plan unknown to us in its purpose and details.

Even the righteous Job experienced BOTH wealth and poverty, respect and shame, blessing and suffering. This is a warning to us not to read into temporary worldly states any eternal significance.

(2) If we can even use the term 'financially successful', then it must mean rather something like this:

God wants us to be financially and indeed fully RESPONSIBLE. If we are doing God's will, then when we plant and water, the Lord may indeed give the increase, as Paul says. In this sense, our plans and God's plans may temporarily coincide, and prosper.

What the Holy Scriptures DO consistently and repeatedly teach is GOOD STEWARDSHIP. God does want us to participate and help to build an economic system based upon justice, fairness, honesty, and equality.

We don't actually have such a system fully operational on earth, but the more WE participate, the more just and fair and honest we are, the better the world will be, and the more closely things on earth will resemble the pattern in heaven. This is built right into the Lord's Prayer when we say, "on earth as it is in heaven."

Although we can never really have complete justice or holiness on this fallen planet, we can constantly strive for it, and even make personal sacrifices to increase the occurances of that ideal. This the Lord expects us to do, even though on earth there may be unfairness and burdens a Christian will bear because of the sin and corruption of this world.

So when the Lord says, 'turn the other cheek' or 'love your enemies', He knows there will often be a cost, and because of sin and the need for forgiveness there will be an unfairness in many transactions Christians must bear.

But suffering is not an end in itself, and there is no benefit or advantage in needless suffering. In fact, the Lord wants us to minimize suffering for ourselves and others, and increase the quality of life for all who are willing to participate in the Lord's plan for us.

So Christians don't make 'worldly profit' their goal, but rather work toward the greatest good as the Lord reveals it to them. We are a light unto all the people, and should be enlightening others too.

(3) God does not promise that if we are righteous or following His will as we understand it, that we will all be constantly rich in the worldly sense.

Rather, God warns us of times of both prosperity and drought, of feast and famine, and expects us to plan ahead, show ourselves to be good stewards, and be able to help when 'famines' come.

In fact, if our needs are met, and there is a surplus of goods, services, money or other resources, every Christian should understand that these ought to be diverted to the needs of evangelism and education, or the physical needs of people inside and outside the church.

(4) Excessive worldly wealth is not a 'sign' of God's approval, any more than a drought is a sign of God's disapproval of the plants and animals that suffer from it.

These things will continue to occur because neither our economic system, nor or justice system, nor even the weather is in a state of Godly perfection. All our worldly systems are suffering from the results of longstanding sin and damage, and cannot be expected to function properly at this time.

Although good stewardship and good business practice can assist in at least temporary prosperity locally for some, many economic transactions do not generate or increase real wealth, nor do they distribute wealth more fairly or usefully.

(5) Even though the Holy Scriptures do teach that God may bless us when we are acting as good Stewards, there is more to it than this:

Even when we have what seems to be a good business plan, and a morally good cause, and the talent and resources to do it, God warns us that for everything there is a season.

You can have a marvelous idea, and the Lord may even grant you the priviledge of doing it, but on a timetable far different than yours. Just as the Law of Gravity constrains Christians as strongly as it does non-Christians, the Lord's plans take precedence over our own plans.

A Christian should not naively expect every business they start to instantly prosper, nor should they respect or honour the haphazard distribution of wealth in this world in any way. Instead, Christians are asked to uphold justice and fairness to rich and poor, knowing that these temporary states ultimately have little significance.

As Jesus said to Pontius Pilate,

"You would have no power at all,
if it had not been given from above."
​

Pilate's power did not make him righteous, or spiritual, or especially approved of God. It apparently didn't even grant him wisdom or even confidence in his own knowledge.

"What is truth?"


Avoid 'prosperity gospels' that are different from the plain social gospel of Jesus the Lord of Lords, who blessed the poor, and warned that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Morghaine]

Well done, Nazaroo! I tried: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nazaroo again.

 

[jesusmysaviour76]

Thankyou, now I understand, ok i'm sure i'll be back when the next bit stumps me lol.

 

[daveleau]

God has recently lead me to study the book of James, and I came across a passage tonight that has me totally stumped. So I thought I would ask your opinons.

James 1:9-11

"The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high positioin. But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; it's blossom falls and it's beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business"

Ok now what has me confused is I have heard preachers such as Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyers preach about how God wants us to be financially successful, and I know that if God makes us rich then I don't imagine He would take us out like that because the gift is from Him. But what I'm wondering are these people rich from God or not? Will God really bless us by making us financially rich or is this their deceived ways coming out in their preaching?

God desires different things for different people. The Word of Faith/ Prosperity movement (Copeland/Meyers) puts God as servant to our prayers and makes Him into somewhat of a spiritual ATM. We MUST seek God's will first. In all the passages they discuss regarding God answering our prayers, they take them out of context and ignore the passages directly before or after that mention seeking the will of God and righteousness first. God acts as our Father, and He does not want us o suffer, but He does punish us (Heb 12) for habitual sin and He does put us through trials where we learn (1 Thess 3, James 1). These are for our benefit, and we are to learn from them. We know God works for the betterment of mankind (Rom 8:28). Giving people money and all their desires is not for our betterment, but makes us greedy spoiled little children- not spirituall mature children (Luke 8:14).

We often unwknowingly ask for things that will hurt us. God knows the future, so He knows what is best for us. (Ps. 139:7-12; Jer. 23:23, 24; Isa 46:10) Romans 8 teaches us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the will of God- not our will.

Don't get me wrong and think I am condemning these preachers as many people sadly do. WoF and Prosperity Movement preachers are spreading the Gospel to many, albeit a flawed in this aspect regarding God answering prayers (but many congregations are flawed-but we must not condemn them as they preach the Gospel as delineated in 1 Cor 15:1-8). They do a good work in bringing people to Christ. I just hope the side-effect of people realizing the truth about prayer from Scripture and receiving answers of "no" or "not yet" from prayers will not push them away from God.

God will make some rich and some He will not. It depends on His will, not ours.

In Him,
Dave

 

[jon914]

God has recently lead me to study the book of James, and I came across a passage tonight that has me totally stumped. So I thought I would ask your opinons.

James 1:9-11

"The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high positioin. But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; it's blossom falls and it's beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business"

Ok now what has me confused is I have heard preachers such as Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyers preach about how God wants us to be financially successful, and I know that if God makes us rich then I don't imagine He would take us out like that because the gift is from Him. But what I'm wondering are these people rich from God or not? Will God really bless us by making us financially rich or is this their deceived ways coming out in their preaching?

There is nothing Ken or Joyce could say that would inpress me.
As for God and making you rich? Well God uses what He needs to bring you closer to Him. God made Job rich and then took everthing but his wife from him, then return all twice over. It was to teach Job and us.

Abraham God made rich and Abraham kept it, because it was not the money, but his son that was important.
It is what is important to your heart that God uses to bend you and make you come to the foot of the cross.

John914

 

[jesusmysaviour76]

Thankyou.