James White

I apologize if I came across as belligerent in my last posts. I was not in a particulary good mood at the time.

I don't know how much stronger you can get than, "a Primacy is given to Peter... If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?"   but I'll try. What must be remembered, though, is there is not a separation between the Church at Rome and the Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome is the leader of the Roman Church, thus anything that is said of it is by default said of its Bishop.

For instance Jerome's statement here:

"But he was not so eager as to lay aside caution. He called the bishop to him, and esteeming that there can be no true thankfulness except it spring from true faith, he enquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is, with the Roman Church?"
Ambrose,The death of his brother Satyrus,1:47(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:168

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Jerome equates the belief of the Catholic bishops with that of the Roman Church. This was before the Great Schism, so there was only the Catholic Church. It is this united Church whose belief was synonomous with the Roman Church, whose chief pastor would be the Bishop of Rome. Jerome makes his point very clear when he writes this phrase in a letter to Pope Damasus in 375 A.D.

As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!

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Other such quotes are:

"You cannot deny that you know that in the city of Rome the Chair was first conferred on Peter, in which the prince of all the Apostles, Peter,sat ... in which Chair unity should be preserved by all, so that he should now be a schismatic and a sinner who should set up another Chair against that unique one."
Optatus of Mileve,The Schism of Donatists,2:2-3 (c.A.D. 367),in GCC,55

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So it seems to us right and altogether fitting that priests of the Lord from each and every province should report to their head, that is, to the See of Peter, the Apostle."
Council of Sardica,To Pope Julius (A.D. 342),as cited by James T. Shotwell and Louise Ropes Loomis The See of Peter (New York:Columbia,1927),pp.527-528.

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This next quote from Cyprian I find very telling because not only does it relay at least some inherent belief in the infallibility of the one who is seated in the "throne of Peter" when he states that "faithlessness could have no access" to the teachings of the Roman Church, but he states that the unity of the Priesthood, what makes the Church One Body in Christ, finds its source in the Roman Church, specifically the Petrine Chair.

"After such things as these, moreover, they still dare--a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics--to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access."
Cyprian,To Cornelius,Epistle 54/59:14(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:344

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There is also Iranaeus who states the following:

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416

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Iranaeus states that it is a Tradition derived from the Apostles themselves that "...it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this [Roman] Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority."

But what I find most compelling is this statement from a Canon of the Council of Chalcedon, a Ecumenical Council accepted by both Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. Therefore let this most holy and great synod sentence the before mentioned Dioscorus to the canonical penalties."
Council of Chalcedon,Session III (A.D. 451),in NPNF2,XIV:259-260

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God Bless, Jason,

Neal

You might get something out of this, Jason. It's a lot of trash-talking, but some issues are actually addressed...

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/papacy1.htm

They were all from the site I listed above.

www.cin.org/users/jgallegos

God Bless,

Neal

Jason,

You may also find this one helpful to. A lot of the those quotes can be found in it's orginal context on here. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/TOC.htm#TopOfPage

Great Thread!

BTW, James White's anti-Catholic book, "Mary, another Redeemer?," helped me see how silly the Protestant views on Mary are while I was converting to the Church.