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Featured Jacob Wrestling God Significance

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by RGW00, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    Genesis 32:22-32

    It's not like I have never read this passage before. But for some reason, it may just be that I'm tired, but I can't wrap my head around why this is significant.

    My first question may be naive but was that actually God in human form? I am just confused because God sent Jesus down in the New Testament in human form and that's the only time God has ever claimed to come down to Earth.

    My second question is what does it mean? My interpretation of it is this, but I'm not quite sure. God fought Jacob for a long time because maybe Jacob was angry with Him. It's a meaningless effort for us to try to fight Him because God doesn't ever let up. But this theory was debunked when God actually dislocated his hip, Genesis 32:25

    I just seem to be confused on this for some reason, it's bothering me because I cannot seem to grasp the significance of it. Any ideas?
     
  2. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe this explanation by a Christian scholar about how the OT mentions God in a human form, which is not unusual and can be found in multiple passages, can help.
     
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    It's like a Father wrestling with his Son...

    They both enjoy it very much actually, God could have let Jacob prevail, like a Father would his Son...

    God Bless!
     
  4. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    You can't enter the Kingdom of God if you listen to sermons. You've got to do your home work:

    Matthew 11:12
    "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

    NT Wright says there are no passengers. Everyone has to work through the difficult passages by themselves.



    "Chew it afresh

    Chew It Through Afresh (RJS)


    Quote
    "One of the interesting things about the Christian faith, when you think about the Bible, is that it seems to be designed so that every generation needs to chew it through afresh. We can no-one of us live on what was done before because cultures change, that has always been true, the language too, the pressure points of people have always been changing and again and again, this is not just true of our generation but every generation.It's rather like the way the Israelites gathered manna. You just have to go out and get the fresh stuff every day.But the good thing is that it means we all have to grow up and that there can be no passengers. We've all got to think it through and that is really the Pauline principle of transformation by the renewal of the mind and the way that that happens is when we are faced with new situations and we have to think it through afresh what is it we are saying and what we mean by what we are saying... We've GOT to do that."

    N T Wright
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    With God, right...?

    Not of purely our own selves or our own efforts, right...?

    Cause that would be OT Law/covenant...

    God Bless!
     
  6. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    My dad, real dad, when I saw him, he liked to play pool, and I got into it, an it felt kind of good that we'd have something we both liked to do, where were challenging each other and wrestling or competing, he always won, he would never "let me win", But I admired him for that strangely, but, I never gave up, I kept playing, kept practicing, till, one day, I beat him once, and I wondered if he let me win or not, or if he was just off his game that day, and I was on mine, or what...?

    But, anyways, thought that could kind of apply here...?

    God Bless!
     
  7. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    Good observation, but I don't know if that would apply. God would never let us beat Him in anything or let His guard down. I have thought about it more and it might mean that God is telling us that even though sometimes we fight Him and argue with Him, He spares us.
     
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  8. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    It is a narrative of the transformation of Jacob.
    Jacob translated meant trickster in receiving the blessing of Isaac ,he pretended to be Esau.
    They were twins but Esau was first born,Jacob bought his birthright for a pot of stew.

    Now Jacob was to face his brother and feared his wrath.

    Genesis: 32. 24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
    Jacob had past tense struggled with God over his actions,but he did not wrestle with God ,he wrestled with a man the Bible says.

    In some way I think this could have been Esau giving Jacob the birthright legitimately,but this is only my own take on the subject.
    My Bible does not say a Angel or God,and when you consider Jacob stealing the Birthright originally to force Esau to bless him would have made peace between them.
    Here is Jacob meeting God in a dream previously:

    Genesis: 28. 12. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. 13. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. 16. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. 17. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
    He goes on to prosper greatly then returns home and faces Esau.

    Read for yourselves chapter 32 of Genesis,or the previous ones as well leading up to this event.
    Jacobs words in the narrative could have been figurative, or common idioms in describing the event.
    In future references Jacob is not always called Israel.
    Esau married the daughters of Ishmael against his father's wishes.
    We know the seed of Ishmael is today the Arabic people not Hebrew.
     
  9. HighCherub

    HighCherub Active Member

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    Jacob wrestling God is a wonderful thing- it is God's sovereignty instilling His will onto a stubborn man.

    We all have wrestled with God, and we all lost- the difference is that some of us accepted it while others ran away feeling they were cheated ^_^
     
  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    I understand that there are scholars who have different ideas about this; so I can see that being considered an expert scholar is not a guarantee that you will understand Bible things correctly.

    I believe that could have been Jesus wrestling with Jacob, but not in a flesh and blood body like when He came to earth through the body of His virgin mother Mary.

    He could have spiritually produced physical effects, of wrestling, on Jacob's body, even though He did not have a physical body during the wrestling. Jesus did not have a physical body while He by spiritual power created Adam; so I consider He could have wrestled with Esau's body while Jesus Himself was spiritual only and in human form.

    And Jesus says the early scriptures "are they which testify of Me," in John 5:39. So, I consider that various early scriptures are symbolically talking about Jesus; and, a number of times, when the scriptures talk about what "the LORD" did or said, they could mean God the Son was doing those things but not with a physical body, yet, but yes in His personal form.
     
  11. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    The 'man' touched Jacob and put his hip out of joint. So no ordinary fellow was this man.
    Christ is the man in other theophany appearances in the OT.
    The angel of the Lord may also have been Christ in the OT.

    What is an epiphany?
     
  12. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    I just think God would have made it clear that it was Jesus that did that. It specifically says that God was there. How could it be Jesus when He wasn't physically born until the beginning of the New Testament?
     
  13. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Jacob refused to let go of the man before the man had blessed Jacob.
    Now in scripture one who is greater blesses the one who is lesser.
    As did Melchizedek King of Salem bless Abraham, And Christ was called after the order of Melchizedek

    Joshua 23, v8, tells us to hold fast to the Lord your God.
    Jacob also held God close not desiring to let go of Him.
    Mary also clung to Christ when she saw Him in the garden.

    So we see a spiritual principle at play here in the wrestling of Jacob with God.
    Jacob was to meet Esau and wrestled with God refusing to let go until he received the blessing. If you read further, Jacob had his concerns over meeting Esau.

    6 Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left, 7 and lest you go among these nations, these who remain among you. You shall not make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause anyone to swear by them; you shall not serve them nor bow down to them, 8 but you shall hold fast to the Lord your God, as you have done to this day.
     
  14. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    In the prayer of Jesus in John chapter seventeen, Jesus says He existed "before the world was" > John 17:5. So, even though Jesus had not been born in a physical body, He did exist before He came to this earth through Mary. And so, I see He could have been here to wrestle with Jacob and walk in the Garden of Eden and visit with Abraham at his tent.
     
  15. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    True. He was there in the beginning. I just didn't think He ever entered earth until He was born in Bethlehem. I don't know if it says in the Bible that He has ever come to earth at any other point in time. I may be wrong, but I just can't seem to find that scripture.
     
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Here is one which you can call an epiphany, Christ was directing to tribes, so then present on the earth. Not necessarily in physical form, but could have been regarding the reference the 'Angel of the Lord.'


    1 Corinthians 10:1-5New King James Version (NKJV)
    Old Testament Examples
    1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
     
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Joshua worships a MAN, however this is not a man, but the Angel of the Lord who is commander of the Lord's army, and must be Christ.
    Angel worship is not allowed. And the place had become holy ground.

    Joshua 5
    13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

    14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”

    And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

    15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.


    Would an angel sent from God say this using the word 'I'?
    Possibly.
    Only God could do this thing regarding this woman.
    Genesis 16:10
    Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.”
    Judges 13:18
    And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    Who Is the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament?
     
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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  19. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    There are places in early scripture where it says "the LORD" appeared to someone. And it looks like it says "the LORD" appeared in human form. And, like I say, it says "the LORD" walked in the Garden of Eden. So, from this I can see it can mean Jesus.

    And John 8:56 says Abraham rejoiced to see His day. So, in different ways, I can see, Jesus was personally involved with certain people, though He did not come and live in a physical body.

    And there was "the LORD" who went before and behind Israel. And Jesus is God the Son; so "the LORD" can mean the Person of Jesus.

    So, there is enough in early scripture to fit with Jesus having been here, in various ways. And He loves and cares about His people; so love would have had Him visiting, I consider :)
     
  20. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    The difference is in the time periods though. Jesus was here in the New Testament, God was here in the Old and New Testament. I don't mean Jesus was there in the beginning, He was there in creation but not physically on earth in human form.
     
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